Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 01:36 pm
Questioner Wrote:

Quote:
I can see how that can be frustrating. For the record, my definition of scientific proof would be just about anything from theories to conjectures based on known facts to the facts themselves. The facts being something that has been studied, disected, whatever and who's properties are known.


Well then, I submit we Christians have offered this. ...anything FROM theories to.....based on known facts..... well, it is known that Christ walked on the earth, and not just Christians know that. What doesn't seem to be known by some is whether he is the Son of God or not. And, I would say these facts have been studied and dissected nearly to death.

Questioner Wrote:

Quote:
Absolute proof is very hard to come by, it's true. However, conjecture based upon known facts (gravity, mass etc) is considered to be 100% more reliable than faith. They are two completely seperate entities, faith and proof. Thus my point that you can't really provide "facts" based on something you have "faith" in. It's simply impossible. If you had facts, you wouldn't have faith.


Considered to be 100% more reliable by whom? Not me. I have already said since man is flawed science therefore must be flawed. Your definition of proof and my definition of proof are what seem to be the separate entities. I have facts and I have faith. You just don't accept my facts. So, we can agree to disagree?

Questioner Wrote:

Quote:
The message has changed, and will change. Just with the latest two versions of the bible you can see a large difference in wording, and sentence structure. This is how things get muddled. What means something to one translator, can have a completely different meaning for the person reading and trying to discern the meaning of the text.


The message itself has not changed. What has changed is man's interpretation of the message. There is a HUGE difference there. God has not changed His message. Man has changed it to suit man.

Questioner Wrote:

Quote:
Sorry, but that doesn't mean much. Of course man came up with it. Who else would? God apparently didn't bother. Man must have methods to quantify his surroundings. This is how understanding is reached.

However, since this debate is being conducted by man, using words that man came up with about a book which uses the exact same words . . . .


You can't see it? You accept what MAN says scientifically, yet you admit it was MAN that made the stuff up. Man is flawed, science is flawed. God has not changed His word. Man has.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 01:46 pm
You are wrong, Frank. You used the word hypocrite NOT hypocrites. I responded with 3 uses of the word hypocrite in the New Testament. You came us with more using the plural..hypocrites. That is not what you said the first time. Of course, that would make me wrong, wouldn't it. Rolling Eyes

It is not being right or wrong, Frank. That is your world.

Frank, perhaps it is time that you became a man instead of suggesting that of others. Integrity???? hmmmm

If responding to your nonsense is being nasty... guilty as charged.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 01:56 pm
Intrepid wrote:
You are wrong, Frank. You used the word hypocrite NOT hypocrites. I responded with 3 uses of the word hypocrite in the New Testament. You came us with more using the plural..hypocrites. That is not what you said the first time. Of course, that would make me wrong, wouldn't it. Rolling Eyes


I was wondering if you would stoop low enough to use that argument. I actually removed a reference to it before posting one of my responses...just to see if you would do it. I was hoping you would not...but suspected you would.

Of course, I was hoping earlier when I questioned your supposed knowledge that there is a God...you would simply acknowledge that you did not know...and move on.

You are a huge disappointment.

Of course, Jesus, when speaking to (or of) one person used one form of the word and when speaking to (or of) several...used the other.

And you want to consider me "wrong" because you were not smart enough to do the search you did using both forms of the word!!!

How sad! I pity you.


Quote:
It is not being right or wrong, Frank. That is your world.


If you would stoop to that silly argument about singular and plural...it obviously is about being right or wrong with you, Intrepid.

You are a sad, sad case.



Quote:
Frank, perhaps it is time that you became a man instead of suggesting that of others. Integrity???? hmmmm


Both apply to you as I have suggested. You are a sad, sad case.


Quote:
If responding to your nonsense is being nasty... guilty as charged.


In this case...you may substitute the word "petty" for nasty.

And you are guilty as charged.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 01:59 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

Well then, I submit we Christians have offered this. ...anything FROM theories to.....based on known facts..... well, it is known that Christ walked on the earth, and not just Christians know that. What doesn't seem to be known by some is whether he is the Son of God or not. And, I would say these facts have been studied and dissected nearly to death.


That the man existed isn't really in doubt, agreed. The question is the one you mentioned above. And you'll admit that it's a fairly substantial question in regards to christianity?

Quote:
Considered to be 100% more reliable by whom? Not me. I have already said since man is flawed science therefore must be flawed. Your definition of proof and my definition of proof are what seem to be the separate entities. I have facts and I have faith. You just don't accept my facts. So, we can agree to disagree?


By definition they have to be. Faith is something that you believe in without proof or evidence. Proof is something that is studied, solidly evident, and visually apparent. It is the complete contrast to what faith is. I would pull the definition of the two but it would have to come from the dictionary which you've already dismissed as sketchy. I'll happily accept any facts that you can produce and show how they were reached. What you're producing however is conjecture on a book written by men and claiming it to be god's (proof he exists?) word.

Quote:
The message itself has not changed. What has changed is man's interpretation of the message. There is a HUGE difference there. God has not changed His message. Man has changed it to suit man.


I understand that this is what you belive. I can respect that. From the other side of the fence however, your argument is ridiculous since it appears that you're implying that god wrote the bible. He didn't, men did. Men that were flawed, and had their own agenda while writing. And that man has changed the bible is not in question. Man wrote it, man changes it to suit his needs. This is why so many here are having trouble believing that people would adhere to a book that has seen so many altercations and persist in declaring it as "fact".

Quote:
You can't see it? You accept what MAN says scientifically, yet you admit it was MAN that made the stuff up. Man is flawed, science is flawed. God has not changed His word. Man has.


Since it was man that wrote the bible, your conclusion can't really be accepted by someone that doesn't share your faith. Once again I commend your faith, but can't accept it myself.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:00 pm
Ok, we can all agree then? For all have sinned....?

Let's stop tearing at each other guys. I know this is a difficult topic for all of us at times, but we are just going to lock up the thread if we continue in this manner.

Truce?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:04 pm
I was about to say the same thing Momma Angel just said. It is breaking my heart to see Frank and Intrepid fighting with each other. Not long ago, Intrepid started a nice thread so that all of us could wish Frank a happy birthday!
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:05 pm
Questioner,

Man actually penned the Bible, yes, but the Bible was God-inspired and God-breathed.

I am not implying that God actually sat down and wrote the Bible. Never have I implied or said that.

You still don't see my point though. You accept that scientists that have written something as fact is fact. They are men. Yet, you dismiss what was written in the Bible because it was written by men and men make mistakes and interpretations are different, etc. What is the difference? Why will you accept it from one book a man wrote and not from another when you know that the one is flawed?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:06 pm
Has man really evolved?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:08 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Has man really evolved?

I'm not sure but I have a real craving for a banana right now (daiquiri that is!)
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:23 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Questioner,

Man actually penned the Bible, yes, but the Bible was God-inspired and God-breathed.

I am not implying that God actually sat down and wrote the Bible. Never have I implied or said that.

You still don't see my point though. You accept that scientists that have written something as fact is fact. They are men. Yet, you dismiss what was written in the Bible because it was written by men and men make mistakes and interpretations are different, etc. What is the difference? Why will you accept it from one book a man wrote and not from another when you know that the one is flawed?


MA, I completely see your point. I used to live your point. It's you that isn't seeing, or at least not aknowledging my point. In the christian belief system, yes, the bible is god-inspired. In the group of people that doesn't believe in god, using that as any kind of argument is absolutely ludicris. It's akin to me saying that Peter Pan was fairy-inspired.

I don't dismiss what was written in the bible because it was written by men. I "question" what was written in the bible because 1) I don't know that god exists, 2) It's written in such a way that questioning it's validity is strongly frowned upon, and any questions asked are met with the same infuriating nonsense that we've been seeing in this very thread.

I will accept science because I can see science work. I can see an experiment performed, and the expected results come true.

I can pray to god for days, weeks, months for something that the bible suggests would be very worthy and nothing happens. Why? "It's god's will." It has all the symptoms of a very long-lived con.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:31 pm
Questioner,

And I also see your point. In my life, I can see God at work. I see it every single day. There are somethings in this world that just cannot be explained. Things that I call miracles others call coincidence. It's what makes the world go round.

Let me ask you this. If (just supposing here) the Bible was written by men and not God-inspired or God-breathed as I say, why did man leave so many questions unanswered? Surely, if you and others have these questions don't you think they had the same questions? Why not write something that would answer all the questions?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:40 pm
wandeljw wrote:
I was about to say the same thing Momma Angel just said. It is breaking my heart to see Frank and Intrepid fighting with each other. Not long ago, Intrepid started a nice thread so that all of us could wish Frank a happy birthday!


You and Momma are right. It is not my nature to fight and I apologize to those to whom I have offended in any way. I won't blame the way things have been going for the past couple of weeks. I will only blame myself for letting things get the better of me.

There doesn't always have to be a winner and loser or right and wrong. There can be a differing of opinion but nobody has to be right. I let my emotions get the better of me and for that I apologize.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:43 pm
Intrepid,

I am sending hugs! Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:43 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Questioner,

And I also see your point. In my life, I can see God at work. I see it every single day. There are somethings in this world that just cannot be explained. Things that I call miracles others call coincidence. It's what makes the world go round.

Let me ask you this. If (just supposing here) the Bible was written by men and not God-inspired or God-breathed as I say, why did man leave so many questions unanswered? Surely, if you and others have these questions don't you think they had the same questions? Why not write something that would answer all the questions?


Because that's the way a good con works. What's the point of taking all that time to make up a religion if it would be simplicity itself to debunk it? Leaving large gaps in the evidence and facts makes it nearly impossible to disprove. Make no mistake, this is a very jaded viewpoint. It also just happens to be the viewpoint of many non-believers.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:47 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Questioner,

And I also see your point. In my life, I can see God at work.


You see things happening...and you choose to guess that it is some god at work.

If you have actually seen your god do something...please tell us about it...and let us know what the god looked like so we can be sure it was not a mailman, nurse, or school teacher.


Quote:
I see it every single day.


You see things every day. Fine.

But for you to suggest that it is some god at work is not reporting what you see...but what you choose to be the reason for what you see.


Quote:
There are somethings in this world that just cannot be explained.


Yes there are. We agnostics call those unexplained things..."unexplained things."


Quote:

Things that I call miracles others call coincidence. It's what makes the world go round.


Call things whatever you choose. That does not make it so.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:48 pm
So, you think some think that it was just a con made up to be passed through time? I am being serious here. Do you really think that some think that? I am very curious as to why would someone would even do that?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:50 pm
Dang it, Frank! I just about had that danged armor all situated and then you start shooting arrows already!

Great, now I have to go dig out some other armor. I can see I may need it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:53 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
So, you think some think that it was just a con made up to be passed through time? I am being serious here. Do you really think that some think that? I am very curious as to why would someone would even do that?


If I may...

...it appears the first gods were invented for what seems a reasonable reason. People were frightened by the world...by all the unknowns.

So they made up gods...and offered sacrifice.

Later on...rulers found that they could keep control of their populations by having their dictates supposedly arise from a desire to do what the gods wanted done. So they had people who worked for them invent gods...and put all sorts of laws into the mouths of those gods.

That persisted. You do know of "the divine rights of kings"...right?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:55 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Dang it, Frank! I just about had that danged armor all situated and then you start shooting arrows already!

Great, now I have to go dig out some other armor. I can see I may need it.


You're right. I should hold back until you are fully suited up.

Lemme know when that is.

But it wouldn't look good if it took too long. Some people might see it as stalling.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:58 pm
Not stalling. Just in the middle of some work here. I am almost finished with it and I want to give you and the topic the attention it deserves.
0 Replies
 
 

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