djbt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 11:06 am
real life wrote:
Here, you can try to start with the easy question that I just asked Farmerman: If mutations that supposedly cause Evolution are simply random occurrences due to sheer blind chance, then why would 'most all (Farmerman's characterization of the distribution)' of the differences in the genes of these two species be concentrated in a given area or few areas?

Why would they not be fairly evenly distributed among all the genes in a random fashion?

Well, I'm really no expert, but until farmerman arrives, my first guess would be that mutations did occur in all areas of the genome, but in most the impact of the mutation was negative, only in certain areas was mutation positive (perhaps because in those areas mutation resulted in very small phenotypic effects - which are more likely to be positive, than large ones).

neologist wrote:
Farmer; does speciation occur only within a specific genus? What would be the process by which drastic or repetitive speciation might produce a different genus?

Quick question, what do you mean by 'genus'? How would you define it in this context? How would one decide that two organisms are of a different genus?
0 Replies
 
djbt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 11:12 am
real life wrote:
The color analogy is a poor one. Species have distinct differences between them not just a series of gradations.

What are the others?

real life wrote:
The number of chromosomes would be just one example of this.

If a creature has (for instance) 20 chromosomes, it will not gradually change to a 22 chromosome creature by gradually increases to 20.01, 20.02, 20.03, 20.04 and so on, will it?

The number of chromosomes may be quite a puzzle if evolution is the only point of reference.

Goats have 60 and camels have 70. But Guinea pigs have 64.

The shrew has 23, squirrels have 40.

King crab have 208.

Humans have 46. Bats have 44, as do porpoises.

Do all of the "closely related" creatures have the same (or even nearly the same) number of chromosomes? No they don't.

Do we see an orderly progression from simpler life to more complex in terms of the number of chromosomes. Again no.

How many chromosomes does an amoeba have?

Well, it doesn't seem impossible to me that an organism's offspring could have a different number of chromosomes than it's own, by a rare mutation. But I'm no expert.

Farmerman, what do you say?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 12:27 pm
I'm not an expert either, but as thesaying goes, I know a man who is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/index.shtml
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 04:33 pm
Lets understand the differences between a chromosome and a gene. The number of chromosomes has nothing to do with whether similar animals can interbreed or not.
A zebra (16 chromosomes) can interbreed with a wild horse (Przewalski's Horse {I guesseed at the spelling}) wild horse has 33 chromosomes. No, its something else within the complement of genes that make up the chromosome. Donkeys and horses can interbreed . The fact that the offspring are hybrid and usually sterile has nothing to do with anything either.
The changes in chromosomes , like humans and chimps , are not mutations. Mutations occur within the nucleotides in the genic DNA.
A chromosome is one DNA strand that is divisible into genes and are divisible by sections called introns, codons, exons, nuons etc. Single genes can have hundreds of thousands of nucleotides(mutATIONS IN ONE SPOT MAKE THE ENTIRE GENE A MUTATION) or just a few hundred or a thousand.

Real life is trying to make a point about genes being unrelated to the evolutionary path of an organism.
The length of a bacterias "coding" genomeis almost 4 times as big as a humans but the entire genome is about 1000 times smaller. Homologous genes occur between humans and yeasts and bacteria. SO this supports thge fact that genes do create new genes to add onto a genome. As Gould stated, "Genes are merely the bookkeeping of evolution, not the causal reason"
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 04:42 pm
I know it's a stupid question and not worthy of this thread; but since it has yet to be answered, I'll ask it again:
neologist wrote:
Farmer; does speciation occur only within a specific genus? What would be the process by which drastic or repetitive speciation might produce a different genus?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 05:24 pm
Thats pretty much waht happened with NIle Cichlid fish (perch like fish) They were trapped by the spreading center in the Rift Valley and were isolated into lakes , each with its own unique species (and some new genuses ) of cichlids.
The thoughts were that cichlids, being isolated and pretty much alone, began to capture many niches from meat eaters to algae eaters , some nocturnal, others living deep, etc. It was the Galapogos finches all over except here we knew , geologically, when the lakes ripped from the Nile. So the Nile cichlids and the new genuses and species of lake cichlids all became isolated and began evolving into unique forms etc.

The mosquitos of Greece were the same way, in the 50's, these Anapholes mosquitoes, all malaria carriers, were sprayed with DDT. Within 4 or 5 years , they became immune to DDT. This ws seen in their genome.
Creationists dont want to understand the mechanisms of speciation so they argue that this is merely "variation within a kind" yet they fail to define the word "kind", or come up with any mechanisms to account for genus and higher taxa.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 05:42 pm
Creationists are afraid to go to that next step, because they see their whole past crumbling into nothingness. They will fight evolution with every strength in their body and soul. We can see the evidence here.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 08:59 pm
djbt wrote:
real life wrote:
Here, you can try to start with the easy question that I just asked Farmerman: If mutations that supposedly cause Evolution are simply random occurrences due to sheer blind chance, then why would 'most all (Farmerman's characterization of the distribution)' of the differences in the genes of these two species be concentrated in a given area or few areas?

Why would they not be fairly evenly distributed among all the genes in a random fashion?

Well, I'm really no expert, but until farmerman arrives, my first guess would be that mutations did occur in all areas of the genome, but in most the impact of the mutation was negative, only in certain areas was mutation positive (perhaps because in those areas mutation resulted in very small phenotypic effects - which are more likely to be positive, than large ones).



I believe you are correct, DJBT, when you say that most mutations are thought to be harmful rather than helpful. Another odd reason why evolutionists tend to place mutation as the cause of a rise from amoeba to man in a rather limited time frame.

However, whether the effect of the mutation was positive, negative or neutral -- the mutation would still be "THERE"; that is, it would be in evidence wherever it occurred.

Except the "THERE" , according to Farmerman, is not an evenly distributed random "THERE", it is a somewhat concentrated "THERE" that we are looking at.

So my question is, if mutations occur randomly, how come they are not randomly distributed but are instead apparently highly concentrated in a few areas?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 09:10 pm
neologist wrote:
Really, real; take note of who was first to give Wilso his kudos.


Yeah, well sorry Neo. I just can't help but think he could really make some good contributions to the discussion if he would.

I actually have quite a few friends who seem to be just like him. Probably has a great sense of humor and would be the life of any party. Too bad it's a little far for you to have him over to Joe's.

How is Joe nowadays? Has he ever given you his opinion of the likelihood of chemicals ramming into each other to form the component parts of a cell, and those parts crashing into each other until they come alive?
0 Replies
 
daniellejean
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 09:30 pm
I am in a human evolution class right now, and I find it very compelling to reply here. But I dont as a student have time to read 325 pages of debate about creationism and evolution. I will make a few points though.

First off, scientists stay away from the God issue usually. Their claim is not that God doesn't exist, but rather they take evidence that has been tested and retested and retested, and let me reiterate RETESTED and form theories about that evidence. I have to tell you seriously that a scientific theory is not the same thing as the way we lamens use the word. It is basically the highest level of surety an idea can attain in Science. Nobody is saying that without a shadow of a doubt evolution is the basis of all life. But they are saying that all the evidence points that way. And in science, thats BIG.

Darwins theory was hard to dismiss at the time it was written. But now, after all the genetic research that has gone on in the twentieth century, it is hard to dispute.

Let me give you a concrete example, (and credit where it is due to Steve Jones in his book Darwin's Ghost. The most excellent modern example of evolution in action is the HIV virus. The theory behind evolution is that mutations occur randomly and the ones better suited to reproduce will, thereby creating more efficient and resilient organisms that are equally better equipped to reproduce, and new forms of organisms arise. What makes HIV so good at this is that it can multiply at astonishing rates, so the chance for mutation is even greater. Obviously, most of those mutations are unsuccessful, but some are. And now, there are somewhere around 12 recognized strains of the HIV virus (pretty much, one for every continent, and then some).

Jones makes the point that creationists have been willing to accept the process of evolution through HIV (though they don't call it that) because they see it as an example of God's wrath agains homosexuals. Jones states,
Quote:
Creationists find it easy to accept the science of AIDS> ITs arrival so close to the millennium and the Last Judgment is a useful illustration of God's wrath. Homosexuals, they claim, have declared war on nature, and nature has exacted an awful retribution. Fundamentalists admit the evolution of a virus as nature's revenge but will not concede that the same process acts upon life as a whole (Jones, 2000)


The rest of the book is a modern version of The Origin of Species with examples from Genetics factored in. Basically the point is that biologists and other scientists have worked for a long time testing and retesting this theory. And just because you cannot disprove it entirely does not mean it has no credibility. And it is also not a credible argument to say that a controversy exists between Creationism and Evolution because in order for there to be a controversy, both have to be theories that have relatively equal credibility in the scientific community.

Creationism is a useful field of knowledge, but one cannot call it science. I am a religious person, and believe that God is behind the creation of the world, whether it is that he devised evolution or that he created energy (something that most scientists cannot explain where it came from as of yet). But the six days seven nights thing doesn't fit into my world view any more. We can talk about creationism in philosophy and religion and other humanities, but to call it a science implies that it has been tested and has gained respect through the scientific method. The fact remains, you cannot test something that relies on faith.

Hope this wasn't too lengthy, but this is an issue of importance to me.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 10:27 pm
daniellejean wrote:
I am in a human evolution class right now, and I find it very compelling to reply here. But I dont as a student have time to read 325 pages of debate about creationism and evolution. I will make a few points though.

First off, scientists stay away from the God issue usually. Their claim is not that God doesn't exist, but rather they take evidence that has been tested and retested and retested, and let me reiterate RETESTED and form theories about that evidence. I have to tell you seriously that a scientific theory is not the same thing as the way we lamens use the word. It is basically the highest level of surety an idea can attain in Science. Nobody is saying that without a shadow of a doubt evolution is the basis of all life. But they are saying that all the evidence points that way. And in science, thats BIG.

Darwins theory was hard to dismiss at the time it was written. But now, after all the genetic research that has gone on in the twentieth century, it is hard to dispute.

Let me give you a concrete example, (and credit where it is due to Steve Jones in his book Darwin's Ghost. The most excellent modern example of evolution in action is the HIV virus. The theory behind evolution is that mutations occur randomly and the ones better suited to reproduce will, thereby creating more efficient and resilient organisms that are equally better equipped to reproduce, and new forms of organisms arise. What makes HIV so good at this is that it can multiply at astonishing rates, so the chance for mutation is even greater. Obviously, most of those mutations are unsuccessful, but some are. And now, there are somewhere around 12 recognized strains of the HIV virus (pretty much, one for every continent, and then some).

Jones makes the point that creationists have been willing to accept the process of evolution through HIV (though they don't call it that) because they see it as an example of God's wrath agains homosexuals. Jones states,
Quote:
Creationists find it easy to accept the science of AIDS> ITs arrival so close to the millennium and the Last Judgment is a useful illustration of God's wrath. Homosexuals, they claim, have declared war on nature, and nature has exacted an awful retribution. Fundamentalists admit the evolution of a virus as nature's revenge but will not concede that the same process acts upon life as a whole (Jones, 2000)


The rest of the book is a modern version of The Origin of Species with examples from Genetics factored in. Basically the point is that biologists and other scientists have worked for a long time testing and retesting this theory. And just because you cannot disprove it entirely does not mean it has no credibility. And it is also not a credible argument to say that a controversy exists between Creationism and Evolution because in order for there to be a controversy, both have to be theories that have relatively equal credibility in the scientific community.

Creationism is a useful field of knowledge, but one cannot call it science. I am a religious person, and believe that God is behind the creation of the world, whether it is that he devised evolution or that he created energy (something that most scientists cannot explain where it came from as of yet). But the six days seven nights thing doesn't fit into my world view any more. We can talk about creationism in philosophy and religion and other humanities, but to call it a science implies that it has been tested and has gained respect through the scientific method. The fact remains, you cannot test something that relies on faith.

Hope this wasn't too lengthy, but this is an issue of importance to me.


Hi Daniellejean,

Referring to adaptation as "evolution" is rather weak. Have any of the HIV viruses developed into something other than a virus? An amoeba or a paramecium perhaps?

It really has nothing to do with homosexuals. Evolution has been a weak argument from the beginning, being based mostly on inference. Of course it is convenient politically for evolutionists to take a cheap shot at creationists based on this, but it really is a red herring.

Stephen Gould had an interesting quote, to the effect that believers in natural selection as an evolutionary mechanism 'view our [own] data as so bad that we never see the process which we profess to study'. But they hold onto it anyway. Now that's some faith.

------------------------

Also it would seem that your discussion of credibility is a circular argument and not much more. 'There is no controversy regarding evolution because no other position (such as Creation) has any credibility. Creation has no credibility in the scientific community because there is no controversy as to Evolution's legitimacy.'
0 Replies
 
djbt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:07 am
real life wrote:
djbt wrote:
real life wrote:
Here, you can try to start with the easy question that I just asked Farmerman: If mutations that supposedly cause Evolution are simply random occurrences due to sheer blind chance, then why would 'most all (Farmerman's characterization of the distribution)' of the differences in the genes of these two species be concentrated in a given area or few areas?

Why would they not be fairly evenly distributed among all the genes in a random fashion?

Well, I'm really no expert, but until farmerman arrives, my first guess would be that mutations did occur in all areas of the genome, but in most the impact of the mutation was negative, only in certain areas was mutation positive (perhaps because in those areas mutation resulted in very small phenotypic effects - which are more likely to be positive, than large ones).



I believe you are correct, DJBT, when you say that most mutations are thought to be harmful rather than helpful. Another odd reason why evolutionists tend to place mutation as the cause of a rise from amoeba to man in a rather limited time frame.

However, whether the effect of the mutation was positive, negative or neutral -- the mutation would still be "THERE"; that is, it would be in evidence wherever it occurred.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that you really have so little understanding of evolution that you could say this. It's equivalent to thinking that the theory of gravity makes rocks fly up away from the earth...

Just in case this was genuine, and not a rhetorical trick; a negative mutation wouldn't be still "there", because, obviously, the organism that was cursed with it would have likely died (or, more likely, never lived), and therefore not passed it on.

Conversely, an organism with a beneficial mutation would thrive, and reproduce, and so that new gene would spread.

(By the way, mutation is just one small factor, change in allene frequencies is central).
0 Replies
 
daniellejean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:48 am
I am not capable of convincing anyone here. I cited a very well known geneticist. And his book is very convincing. If you also would like more info, please read an article by Daniel Dennet which appeared in the New York Times called "Show Me the Science." It is available on the NYT website. I could go on and on to prove why evolution is convincing, BUT that would mean writing pages and pages worth of arguments. After 326 pages of arguing here, I can see that your beliefs are set. Thats great, and I envy that. But if you want to know more about evolution, I suggest you read some of the texts. Then, argue away. I haven't heard anyone here quote the Origin lately in order to disprove it. Just a thought.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:57 am
I'm just wondering what creationists would require as evidence during a murder trial? Most often, the evidence are circumstantial, because there are usually no eye-witness.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:58 am
Another thought; I wonder if it would be a good defense strategy to make sure all the jury members are creationists?
0 Replies
 
daniellejean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:18 am
I agree cicerone. I have one more thing to add to my last post. Adaptation is the basis for evolution. You cannot have evolution without Natural Selection. Natural Selection is random mutation, and the successful mutations become what we know as adaptations. Just some changes over billions of years are larger than those we see over the past twenty. The adaptations that occurred over the past twenty with HIV are not obviously creating a new species (though, HIV is a virus and is thereby sub-living, that is, it needs a host). But the same changes have occurred between Astralopithucus and Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens, and also between certain land mamals and whales. It is the process of adaptation that fuels evolution, real life. That's a basic tennet of the theory.
0 Replies
 
daniellejean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:18 am
I agree cicerone. I have one more thing to add to my last post. Adaptation is the basis for evolution. You cannot have evolution without Natural Selection. Natural Selection is random mutation, and the successful mutations become what we know as adaptations. Just some changes over billions of years are larger than those we see over the past twenty. The adaptations that occurred over the past twenty with HIV are not obviously creating a new species (though, HIV is a virus and is thereby sub-living, that is, it needs a host). But the same changes have occurred between Astralopithucus and Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens, and also between certain land mamals and whales. It is the process of adaptation that fuels evolution, real life. That's a basic tennet of the theory.
0 Replies
 
daniellejean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:18 am
I agree cicerone. I have one more thing to add to my last post. Adaptation is the basis for evolution. You cannot have evolution without Natural Selection. Natural Selection is random mutation, and the successful mutations become what we know as adaptations. Just some changes over billions of years are larger than those we see over the past twenty. The adaptations that occurred over the past twenty with HIV are not obviously creating a new species (though, HIV is a virus and is thereby sub-living, that is, it needs a host). But the same changes have occurred between Astralopithucus and Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens, and also between certain land mamals and whales. It is the process of adaptation that fuels evolution, real life. That's a basic tennet of the theory.
0 Replies
 
daniellejean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:20 am
oops, didnt mean to submit 3 times
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:33 am
daniellejean, Don't fret about the repeat posts. It happened to all of us on a2k. However, here's a hint; when it's very slow to accept your post, just ignore it rather than hitting submit again.

I have visited the Galapagos Islands a couple of years ago where Charles Darwin did his research on evolution. There are 100 scientists at the Charles Darwin Research Station today, and they observe evolutioin regularly in shorter time spans. I wasn't aware of the 14 Darwin finches until my visit to the Galapagos, but saw first hand on the different islands the finches and their different shapes of beaks. The environment of the islands are all different; some are sandy, some rocks, some with lava, some with greenery, etc., etc.. The change in their beaks were necessary for survival, because the food source are all different from island to island.

If you ever get the opportunity to visit the Galapagos Islands, go. It's a fascinating place where one can approach birds (and other fauna) to take their pictures, and they do not fly away. As I recall, only the crabs on the rocks succurdered away from me!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Evolution? How?
  3. » Page 163
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 10/02/2024 at 12:25:17