farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 07:03 pm
The fun gets better. That project pterosaur site has a project proposal for what will be done in the field. If you look at it closely, I think its missing one thing
ie--Find a pterosaur.
Instead hes gonna make stuffed pterodactyl toys and put out Creationist CDs and crap.

I looked at that"unfossilized pterosaur skull" and Im not an expert in t5hios field, nor do I have any credentials beyond coursework. However all pterosaurs Ive seen have HUUUGE eye orbits so that the eyes were facing front like a hawk or any other predator
"eyes in front, born to hunt'
eyes on the side, run and hide"

Most predators have strong binoc vision or evidence of same (except fish).
I think the skull segment is maybe a ruminant like a gazelle. I love it when these clowns rush to put stuff up on web sites without anybody with experience looking at the evidence.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 08:56 pm
farmerman wrote:
The fun gets better. That project pterosaur site has a project proposal for what will be done in the field. If you look at it closely, I think its missing one thing
ie--Find a pterosaur.
Instead hes gonna make stuffed pterodactyl toys and put out Creationist CDs and crap.

I looked at that"unfossilized pterosaur skull" and Im not an expert in t5hios field, nor do I have any credentials beyond coursework. However all pterosaurs Ive seen have HUUUGE eye orbits so that the eyes were facing front like a hawk or any other predator
"eyes in front, born to hunt'
eyes on the side, run and hide"

Most predators have strong binoc vision or evidence of same (except fish).
I think the skull segment is maybe a ruminant like a gazelle. I love it when these clowns rush to put stuff up on web sites without anybody with experience looking at the evidence.


I do believe these are the same people that brought us Landover Baptist. Laughing
P
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 08:59 pm
They are not clowns; clowns are funny. These guys are screwballs who are dangerous, for they know not what they do.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 10:13 pm
farmerman wrote:
real life. Whats devestating? Theyre looking in the introns and at areas of stop codons . We know that this is where all the 'action" takes place. Also the FOX2 gene is at the end of a chromosome in humans like it just was flipped over from an STR sequence. Its responsible for speech so the new hypothesis seems to state.
AS they unravel the "bar code" of evolution , weve seen that the additions to the human DNA sequence has been an accumulation of genetic changes that are reflected in the time thats passed since post common ancestral bifurcation.
I, for one, find it fascinating. You, I think , are just ignorant of its significance. MAybe you should ask Dr PAley what he thinks.

You know, you can read all about this stuff in EVOLUTION, Its usually in any University library magazine section.


Hi Farmerman,

I think it's fascinating too. But it makes the case for evolution very difficult don't you think?

Chimps are supposedly man's closest living 'relative' in the evolutionary scheme.

Having catalogued now both the human genome and the chimpanzee genome, they are looking at 40,000,000 differences in the DNA between the two 'closely related' species.

This means that about 200 genetic mutations/changes PER GENERATION must have occurred to account for the difference. And these changes all have to have occurred in the same group of lineal descendants (the line that eventually produced all modern humans) for the changes to have accumulated to the present total of 40,000,000.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 07:55 am
real life-You forget that most all of these differences are in the regulator genes (Cf STR or short tandem repeat alleles) . Also are you implying that all the genic differences are only incorporated in the human Genome? Remember, we record the evolution by looking at the differences within each species genome, not just one. Chimps continued to evolve also.

There are many complexes of genes and segments that they dont fully understand functions yet. As Svannte Pabo said (hes the one that decoded the human v Neanderthal genome and found it also quite cumulatively variable)
"Im still amazed at how close the genomes are" When you look at the differences in chromosomes we can see that the "fusing" of the chimps no 2 and 3 became our number 2 chromosome and even so, there are many differences in the "bar code" that dont make exact comparisons. We always knew there would be a countable difference but now theyve quantified it.
Remember the differences are only about 0.004% of the entire two genomes . The chimps count is about 3B and humans about 3.5 B, most of this is in the introns , which is where evolution weeds out the junk.


The interesting thing is the overall "bauplan" that is recorded in the genomes of man and chimp. Everything from the Hox to the PIBf genes, show the amazing economy of how evolution works, in that , once a specific "workable" solution is preserved and recorded on the genome, it is passed on as a "stock toolbox answer" for a specific trait. That takes the "Magic" out of the Creationists wishes in that we understand that everything is , even if only slightly, related in the internal blueprints and all we are doing now is counting "backwards" using the living genomes as a starting point. We also have the genome of Mus musculus (house mouse) and can see the growing bauplan for mammalian configuration.

Not any problem at all.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 08:01 am
pauligirl said
Quote:
I do believe these are the same people that brought us Landover Baptist. [Laughing]

I do believe you are right. I began having real doubts when I went to their "faculty" list and it had a ChristianGambling rep.
Done very well and the article on the Bronto expedition was just enough to be believable , except for the names.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 08:29 am
real life wrote:
This means that about 200 genetic mutations/changes PER GENERATION must have occurred to account for the difference.


Change frequently occurs without mutation. We have discussed this on a couple of other threads.

Here's one

Modern evolutionary theory recognizes that a wide range of development is likely with the components already available within the gene pool.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 08:58 am
farmerman wrote:
real life-You forget that most all of these differences are in the regulator genes (Cf STR or short tandem repeat alleles) . Also are you implying that all the genic differences are only incorporated in the human Genome? Remember, we record the evolution by looking at the differences within each species genome, not just one. Chimps continued to evolve also.

There are many complexes of genes and segments that they dont fully understand functions yet. As Svannte Pabo said (hes the one that decoded the human v Neanderthal genome and found it also quite cumulatively variable)
"Im still amazed at how close the genomes are" When you look at the differences in chromosomes we can see that the "fusing" of the chimps no 2 and 3 became our number 2 chromosome and even so, there are many differences in the "bar code" that dont make exact comparisons. We always knew there would be a countable difference but now theyve quantified it.
Remember the differences are only about 0.004% of the entire two genomes . The chimps count is about 3B and humans about 3.5 B, most of this is in the introns , which is where evolution weeds out the junk.


The interesting thing is the overall "bauplan" that is recorded in the genomes of man and chimp. Everything from the Hox to the PIBf genes, show the amazing economy of how evolution works, in that , once a specific "workable" solution is preserved and recorded on the genome, it is passed on as a "stock toolbox answer" for a specific trait. That takes the "Magic" out of the Creationists wishes in that we understand that everything is , even if only slightly, related in the internal blueprints and all we are doing now is counting "backwards" using the living genomes as a starting point. We also have the genome of Mus musculus (house mouse) and can see the growing bauplan for mammalian configuration.

Not any problem at all.


Hi Farmerman,

Yes I know that referring to the differences as a percentage makes it seem very small ( the article referred to the similarities at between 96% - 99%) , however in raw numbers that still leaves the differences at 40,000,000 .

Assuming that half of the changes occurred in the chimps and half in the humans; and that half of the changes were dominant ( and thus passed on to successive generations ) and half were recessive, then you need 200 genetic changes / mutations PER GENERATION to achieve this difference.

It really doesn't matter which gene the differences occur on, they still must occur. And the changes all have to occur within the lineal descendants of the same humans for the mutations to accumulate.

(As an aside:

Even if you accept by leap of faith that this rate of mutation/ genetic change can and did occur, then you must assume the same rate of change could occur in other humans as well and we should see many examples of humans having evolved into or well into the process of evolving into something else due to the enormous genetic differences that are occurring. This we do not see.

The same is true for other species. If evolution can produce this many changes in a rapid fashion there should be a much larger number of transitional species available to observe , BOTH FOSSILIZED and LIVING EXAMPLES, than we see today. But there is not.

Why isn't this rapid evolution occuring everywhere now?)

The point is that evolutionists cannot account for the sheer numbers of genetic differences between species, but to uphold the Theory they must assert that it happened anyway.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:55 am
why do you assume half and half? science is built upon evidence and data not wishful thinking. I still think that youve gotta take up a study of str's and the actual numerical components of a gene. Im not going to begin a lecture in how the counting was done, but safe it to say, the "differences" they posted are individual single components of base pairs. Since a codon transcribes in groups of 3 base PAIRS, the sequences can be as small as 6 per protein (like tryptophane or methionine) or as many as 2000 base pairs of exons and introns (factor VIII for blood clotting) Thats 4000 nucleotides on one sequence, a single change in factorVIII means that the entire gene component is different.

I know your getting some sage advice but a single substitution or deletion in one codon can mean that 4000 or more (or loess) nucleotides are now different because they make up a single protein.

You may like to think that this is a problem, it aint. In fact its a help to understand the train of events in the evolutional bifurcation.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:59 am
real life asks
Quote:
The same is true for other species. If evolution can produce this many changes in a rapid fashion there should be a much larger number of transitional species available to observe , BOTH FOSSILIZED and LIVING EXAMPLES, than we see today. But there is not.

AND you have this information on what authority? Do you conduct such research or can you point me to a reasonable dispassionate source of evidence that such does not occur.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 11:14 pm
farmerman wrote:
real life-You forget that most all of these differences are in the regulator genes (Cf STR or short tandem repeat alleles) . Also are you implying that all the genic differences are only incorporated in the human Genome? Remember, we record the evolution by looking at the differences within each species genome, not just one. Chimps continued to evolve also.

There are many complexes of genes and segments that they dont fully understand functions yet. As Svannte Pabo said (hes the one that decoded the human v Neanderthal genome and found it also quite cumulatively variable)
"Im still amazed at how close the genomes are" When you look at the differences in chromosomes we can see that the "fusing" of the chimps no 2 and 3 became our number 2 chromosome and even so, there are many differences in the "bar code" that dont make exact comparisons. We always knew there would be a countable difference but now theyve quantified it.
Remember the differences are only about 0.004% of the entire two genomes . The chimps count is about 3B and humans about 3.5 B, most of this is in the introns , which is where evolution weeds out the junk.


The interesting thing is the overall "bauplan" that is recorded in the genomes of man and chimp. Everything from the Hox to the PIBf genes, show the amazing economy of how evolution works, in that , once a specific "workable" solution is preserved and recorded on the genome, it is passed on as a "stock toolbox answer" for a specific trait. That takes the "Magic" out of the Creationists wishes in that we understand that everything is , even if only slightly, related in the internal blueprints and all we are doing now is counting "backwards" using the living genomes as a starting point. We also have the genome of Mus musculus (house mouse) and can see the growing bauplan for mammalian configuration.

Not any problem at all.


Hi Farmerman,

Earlier I said I didn't think it made any difference which gene the differences occur on.

But maybe I'm wrong about that. Perhaps it is significant.

If the rate/causes of mutation/genetic change are completely random, then you might expect to see a fairly even distribution of genetic differences spread across the 46 human chromosomes. If , as you are stating, most of the differences are concentrated in a small area, or a few small areas, then the natural question is why? Isn't this supposed to be random? Aren't we talking about sheer blind chance as the determinant of change?

-----------------

Regarding my assumption, for the sake of calculation, that half of the changes were reflected on the human side and half on the chimps -- it doesn't matter. All could be on one or the other. Or any combination of 90-10 , 80-20, 70-30, etc that you care to postulate. The raw number of differences between human genome and chimps that still has to be accounted for is 40,000,000. It is not affected by which side you put the difference on.

-------------------

Interesting phraseology that you employed when discussing 'where evolution clears out the junk'. It is stated in such a way almost as if Evolution had a mind and was purposefully making things better. Kind of odd.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 03:07 am
Give up guys. No amount of logic, facts and common sense can compete with a lifetime of brainwashing and indoctrination. You'd have as much chance as preventing a coyote from howling at the moon. I think it's rather sad and pathetic that so many people are imprisoned in a lifetime of superstitious fear.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:10 am
Hi Wilso, No wiser words expressed in all of a2k.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:22 am
Farmer; does speciation occur only within a specific genus? What would be the process by which drastic or repetitive speciation might produce a different genus?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:24 am
Wilso wrote:
Give up guys. No amount of logic, facts and common sense can compete with a lifetime of brainwashing and indoctrination. You'd have as much chance as preventing a coyote from howling at the moon. I think it's rather sad and pathetic that so many people are imprisoned in a lifetime of superstitious fear.


Wilso,

*sigh* Here you are again. No contribution to the discussion, just sniping. Why don't you try to join in with something constructive rather than this 4th grade 'nyaah nyaah nyaah' stuff that is your hallmark?

Here, you can try to start with the easy question that I just asked Farmerman: If mutations that supposedly cause Evolution are simply random occurrences due to sheer blind chance, then why would 'most all (Farmerman's characterization of the distribution)' of the differences in the genes of these two species be concentrated in a given area or few areas?

Why would they not be fairly evenly distributed among all the genes in a random fashion?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:33 am
Really, real; take note of who was first to give Wilso his kudos.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:54 am
I'm not a biologist. But I can answer the question. Environmental pressures will favour some organisms and some random genetic mutation and disfavour others. Hence evolution. Its not that difficult.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 08:15 am
BRAVO, Steve. Simple; except some will never "catch on." They're blinded by their religion.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 08:18 am
thanks ci

keep meaning to read up on your travel log...where was it again?

Anyway hope all is well with you
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 08:30 am
Steve, Enjoy @ http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59321&start=50
0 Replies
 
 

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