cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 10:20 am
Yeah, just like your jesus. All fiction; created by men's imagination. You see, there's nothing to "get away from!"
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:59 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yeah, just like your jesus. All fiction; created by men's imagination. You see, there's nothing to "get away from!"


Are you saying Jesus never existed? Can you prove that?
0 Replies
 
shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 07:00 am
No,God is not nowhere,He is now here! :wink:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 09:27 am
real, Your jesus only existed from fictional stories related in your comic book the bible. There is nothing else that proves he existed, even with all those miracles he supposedly performed. Don't you find that curious? He preached to the multitudes, yet nobody recorded those events. It's evident to most of us who criticize your bible jesus that nothing in the bible proves the basis for your religion. You lack critical thinking skills, and the ability to interpret what you read with logic. The bible is a mesh-mash of contradictions, errors and omissions. It's worse than a comic book.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 11:03 am
Comparing the texts from Nag Hammadi, one could argue that a Historical Jesus was written about mostly in legend, since the orthodox Gospels differ greatly from the Gnostics, and the text of Contra Faustum tries to argue against the duality of Jesus (unsuccesfully IMHO) Only because the emerging orthodoxy did away with these texts does Jesus even have a more coherent story line.
Theres as much real forensic evidence to show that Jesus is largely "made up"
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 11:07 am
I hope we don't have to go into the whole interpolations schtick again . . . there is no proof that the so-called Jesus ever existed, and no one is obliged to disprove that he did. Those who rant about their Jesus need to supply proof that he did exist. "Real" Life's rhetorical method is pathetic.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:00 am
I think that if ID or Creationism are valid theories, then so is the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory as proposed by Mr. Bobby Henderson on http://www.venganza.org.

He makes a compelling argument for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Noodly Appendage and I for one must state that if ID and Creationism have to be taught, so must the FLying Spaghetti Monster Theory.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:37 am
Funny how Jesus, a Jew, went from a sect leader to God himself.

Amazing what one can do
to a dead Jew.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:17 am
Mr. Henderson's pirate data is what convinced me--irrefutable proof . . .
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 03:30 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/9500_city.htm

Here's a city believed to be 9,000 years old. WOW, that's 3,000 years older then Adam.

"Marine scientists say archaeological remains discovered 36 meters (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India could be over 9,000 years old.

The vast city - which is five miles long and two miles wide - is believed to predate the oldest known remains in the subcontinent by more than 5,000 years."


And again....

"There's a huge chronological problem in this discovery. It means that the whole model of the origins of civilization with which archaeologists have been working will have to be remade from scratch," he said.

However, archaeologist Justin Morris from the British Museum said more work would need to be undertaken before the site could be categorically said to belong to a 9,000 year old civilization."


That's what so nice about science. They find data and draw conclusions from the data. There's always an open mind. Initial evidence says 9,000 years but they want to examine the evidence more thoroughly to be certain.

Creationism and ID is different. They come to the conclusion first then try to find facts, or manipulate facts, that will support the conclusion.

Gallllll darn, sounds like Bush and Iraq.

Well I guess most all conservatives are alike in that respect, political or religious.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 04:52 pm
xingu wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/9500_city.htm

Here's a city believed to be 9,000 years old. WOW, that's 3,000 years older then Adam.

"Marine scientists say archaeological remains discovered 36 meters (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India could be over 9,000 years old.

The vast city - which is five miles long and two miles wide - is believed to predate the oldest known remains in the subcontinent by more than 5,000 years."


And again....

"There's a huge chronological problem in this discovery. It means that the whole model of the origins of civilization with which archaeologists have been working will have to be remade from scratch," he said.

However, archaeologist Justin Morris from the British Museum said more work would need to be undertaken before the site could be categorically said to belong to a 9,000 year old civilization."


That's what so nice about science. They find data and draw conclusions from the data. There's always an open mind. Initial evidence says 9,000 years but they want to examine the evidence more thoroughly to be certain.

Creationism and ID is different. They come to the conclusion first then try to find facts, or manipulate facts, that will support the conclusion.

Gallllll darn, sounds like Bush and Iraq.

Well I guess most all conservatives are alike in that respect, political or religious.


Not so long ago, evolutionists were postulating that "ancient man" was little better than an apeman or brutish caveman 10,000 years ago.

Now he's got vast cities 9,000 years old. Hmmmmm. Might have to rethink that caveman thing after all.

-----------------------------------

Speaking of Iraq, just what do YOU think Saddam was planning to do with the 500 tons of uranium he had amassed?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 06:13 pm
Quote:
Speaking of Iraq, just what do YOU think Saddam was planning to do with the 500 tons of uranium he had amassed?


What 500 tons? You mean the yellow cake he was suppose to have? That was a lie put out by our presidents neocons; one of many lies his administration has told.

Besides if, for the sake of argument, Saddam did have it what could he have done with it? You tell me.

By the way, those "brutish cavemen" were just as intelligent in their day as we are today. Lets see how well you can survive with nothing more then sticks and stones.

And one last thing. Not so long evolutionists didn't have the new discoveries they have today. Every discovery they make is another nail in the coffin of Creationism. Nothing in science supports Creationism.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 06:56 pm
Nothing?
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:03 pm
Nothing because science actually depends on scientific experiments that can be done again with similar results, and they depend on empirical facts.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:40 pm
xingu wrote:
Quote:
Speaking of Iraq, just what do YOU think Saddam was planning to do with the 500 tons of uranium he had amassed?


What 500 tons? You mean the yellow cake he was suppose to have? That was a lie put out by our presidents neocons; one of many lies his administration has told.

Besides if, for the sake of argument, Saddam did have it what could he have done with it? You tell me.

By the way, those "brutish cavemen" were just as intelligent in their day as we are today. Lets see how well you can survive with nothing more then sticks and stones.

And one last thing. Not so long evolutionists didn't have the new discoveries they have today. Every discovery they make is another nail in the coffin of Creationism. Nothing in science supports Creationism.


The 500 tons of yellow cake were reported not by the White House, but by the New York Times.

Oh wait.......never mind . It's a right wing rag. I forgot.

But what could he have done with it? Enrich it, just as 1.7 tons of it had been partially enriched already. That is, if you believe the Times.

---------------------------

Every discovery made verifies evolution, eh? Let's see a few thousand true transitional forms. No? How about a few hundred? No? How about a few dozen? No?......................

Evolution presupposes literally millions of transitional forms, mostly failures and a (relatively) few hundred thousand successful ones that brought us the species we know today. Where are they (besides as drawings in textbooks)?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:07 pm
"real life" (right)
Quote:
Evolution presupposes literally millions of transitional forms, mostly failures and a (relatively) few hundred thousand successful ones that brought us the species we know today. Where are they (besides as drawings in textbooks)?


Apparently, your understanding ofthe fossil record is just as dim as your understanding of Uranium enrichment. You manufacture findings and then refuse to look for any evidence , or even visit a musuem now and again.
Thats the sanctified way.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:27 pm
real life wrote:
Not so long ago, evolutionists were postulating that "ancient man" was little better than an apeman or brutish caveman 10,000 years ago.

Now he's got vast cities 9,000 years old. Hmmmmm. Might have to rethink that caveman thing after all.


Once again, tediously, there is no such thing as an "evolutionist." The theory of evolution is not an ideological construct, it is a tool in the scientific method for investigating origins and development of life forms.

Anthropologists (to whom one properly turns for information about such human specimens as homo neanderthalis) consider that Neanderthal man flourished from 230,000 years ago, and persisted until as recently as 28,000 years ago (see the Columbia Encyclopedia article), which is well after the rise of home sapiens sapiens.

In the Wikipedia article, one finds the following statments:

Quote:
A Neanderthal skull was first discovered in Forbes' Quarry, Gibraltar in 1848, indeed prior to the "original" discovery in the Neander Valley in August, 1856, three years before Charles Darwin's Origin of Species was published. The fossils from the Neander Valley were found in a limestone quarry near Düsseldorf in the Neanderthal, Germany.

The type specimen, dubbed Neanderthal 1, consisted of a skull cap. Other material found were two femora, the three right arm bones, two of the left arm bones, part of the left ilium, and fragments of a scapula and ribs. They were originally thought to be bear remains by the workers who recovered it. The workers gave the material to amateur naturalist Johann Karl Fuhlrott. Fuhlrott turned the fossils over to anatomist Hermann Schaafhausen and in 1857 the discovery was jointly announced.

That discovery is now considered the beginning of paleoanthropology. These and other discoveries ultimately led to the idea that these remains were from ancient Europeans who had played an important role in modern human origins. Over 400 Neanderthals have been found since.


In this, i refer only to one species which it would be reasonable to characterize as being described by scientists as "ancient man." There are many, many others for which even older origins are postulated based upon sound scientific method applied to archaeological evidence. Whether or not any particular hominid was troglodytic has absolutely no bearing upon the statements of anthropologists about the relative antiquity of those men and women.

Therefore, your statement: "Not so long ago, evolutionists were postulating that 'ancient man' was little better than an apeman or brutish caveman 10,000 years ago."--is completely without foundation. As i pointed out in the "Which Religion is the True Religion" thread, there is a difference between evidence and mere assertion. This is mere assertion on your part, for which you provide no evidence. I was amused, however, to find, when i went to Google to make sure i could cite sources for what i would write, to find several self-avowed creationist sites which not only make the same unfounded assertion, but use almost identical language. Do they give you boys a list of talking points?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 10:29 pm
Ray wrote:
Nothing because science actually depends on scientific experiments that can be done again with similar results, and they depend on empirical facts.
What is the standard of proof required for verification of empirical facts? Is it the same for Physics as for psychology? How about chemistry vs. anthropology? A degree of uncertainty is acceptable in every discipline. The difference is in the amount.

I have nothing but respect for the erudition of farmer and timber and Setanta. I wouldn't hope to challenge them on their findings of facts. That in no way means I trust the montage created by their assemblage of those facts.
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 10:34 pm
Well then, give us your empirical proofs. If what you have is the bible and only the bible, then you are basing your argument on a book that has been reprinted for ages, and that noone knows for sure if it is the actual word of God.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 10:50 pm
neologist
Quote:
That in no way means I trust the montage created by their assemblage of those facts.



You are certainly free to make your own assemblage. Its always better that one derive such conclusions after visiting the data and evidence. Id challenge you to, using the same field and lab evidence, come up with a rational conclusion thats much different .

Youre not really saying that theres a vast conspiracy to fake or surpress key data, are you?
Look what happened to the Liao Lieng "fossil bird" specimens. They were uncovered and sold to the Smithsonian after a cursory inspection by two paleontologists representing the Smithsonian collection. The specimens were quickly reported in NAture and, then, after detailed study, they were found to be manufactured fossils made of "after market" parts. The reports were quickly retracted and new finds were made only under field supervision of Smithsonian curators. Consequently, at least 3 new species and 2 genera of "bird intermediates fossils" were discovered, as well as a series of feathered dromeiosaurs. These specimens gave rise to the hypothesis that birds and dinos shared the same common ancestor and that maybe birds didnt arise from dinosaurs (although Bob Bakker still insists). The study is still going on and isnt at the "fat lady" stage.
The QA and verification of data is extreme, results and conclusions are slow to appear and only after much peer discussion and critique.
I youve better explanations for many of these fossil intermediaries and DNA typology, feel free to join in the fray.
0 Replies
 
 

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