Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 04:17 am
Basically, this is a poker game in which everyone is obliged to not simply to put up or shut, but show their own cards when they call someone else's hand.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:24 am
Setanta wrote:
Basically, this is a poker game in which everyone is obliged to not simply to put up or shut, but show their own cards when they call someone else's hand.
No disrespect to the achievements of those present:

There hasn't been a single period of history that I know of (and perhaps Setanta can correct me on this) where the educated and elite have not puffed themselves up with the importance of their learning. This applies to the scientist as well as the priest, the prince as well as the artist.

We can look back on these folks who thought it proper to worship thunder, who believed in phlogiston, who disparaged the color blue or professed the divine right of kings, and easily see their error.

Do we not believe the future might also expose our own failings? Why then do we cling so tightly to them? And why do we disparage those who cling with equal tenacity to the God who has been the same for an eternal past and will remain for an eternal future?

I'm not offering this as proof of God's existence. We believers may be surprised by what we learn as well. I'm simply pointing out the dismal shelf life of the theories and beliefs we use as a foundation for this skyscraper we call civilization. Trust them if you will.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 11:20 am
That silliness is predicated upon an assumption that the "if i can imagine it, it may be so" method of the past is comparable to the rigorous standards of scientific method, which has only been in use for less than two centuries. Further, it inferentially suggests that those who use and revise a theory of evolution in pursuit of knowledge about the origin and development of life forms are "clinging" to a belief set, as opposed to simply using an intellectual tool--it is equivalent to the silly contention of creationists who assert that there are evolutionists with an agenda to forward an equivalent but different belief set. Finally, this set of what i take to be rhetorical questions on your part: "Do we not believe the future might also expose our own failings? Why then do we cling so tightly to them? And why do we disparage those who cling with equal tenacity to the God who has been the same for an eternal past and will remain for an eternal future?"--assumes that using a theory of evolution as an investigative intellectual tool could constitute a failing, because the future may well demonstrate that it is false. Theories are subject to falsification as a part of the method by which they are validated, revised or rejected out of hand. That statement is also predicated upon an assumption that a deity actually does exist, and has a greater validity as something to which "to cling" because of its eternal nature. That is nowhere established, and constitutes a belief based upon faith. A theory of evolution is not a belief set, it is subject to falsification, replication and revision, and acts a work in progress with which to manage and understand the data about orgins and the development of life forms--nothing more . . . and nothing less.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 06:18 pm
quite nicely said set. Neologist seems to find fault in "lightly held" theories. Anything more would be mere dogma, and we just let that to the priests and their minions
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 09:43 pm
Setanta wrote:
That silliness is predicated upon an assumption that the "if i can imagine it, it may be so" method of the past is comparable to the rigorous standards of scientific method, which has only been in use for less than two centuries. Further, it inferentially suggests that those who use and revise a theory of evolution in pursuit of knowledge about the origin and development of life forms are "clinging" to a belief set, as opposed to simply using an intellectual tool--it is equivalent to the silly contention of creationists who assert that there are evolutionists with an agenda to forward an equivalent but different belief set. Finally, this set of what i take to be rhetorical questions on your part: "Do we not believe the future might also expose our own failings? Why then do we cling so tightly to them? And why do we disparage those who cling with equal tenacity to the God who has been the same for an eternal past and will remain for an eternal future?"--assumes that using a theory of evolution as an investigative intellectual tool could constitute a failing, because the future may well demonstrate that it is false. Theories are subject to falsification as a part of the method by which they are validated, revised or rejected out of hand. That statement is also predicated upon an assumption that a deity actually does exist, and has a greater validity as something to which "to cling" because of its eternal nature. That is nowhere established, and constitutes a belief based upon faith. A theory of evolution is not a belief set, it is subject to falsification, replication and revision, and acts a work in progress with which to manage and understand the data about orgins and the development of life forms--nothing more . . . and nothing less.


Where has macro-evolution ever been replicated and observed rather than inferred?
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 10:21 pm
BTW, anyone heard that Harvard is going to promote a resaearch to study and replicate the origin of life? CNN Webpage
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2005 10:54 pm
Ray wrote:
BTW, anyone heard that Harvard is going to promote a resaearch to study and replicate the origin of life? CNN Webpage


Let me guess.

Millions of dollars, thousands of man-hours, hundreds of highly educated folks expending brainpower, hi tech equipment out the wazoo--- all to prove that life formed BY CHANCE and WITHOUT millions of dollars, thousands of man-hours, hundreds of highly educated folks expending brainpower, hi tech equipment out the wazoo.

Ha. I can't wait.
0 Replies
 
shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 02:28 am
Education is not for mere living; it is for leading a life that is more meaningful and worthwhile. There is no harm if it is also used for seeking a gainful employment; but, the educated must be aware that it is not the be all and end all of education. Again, education is not for developing the faculty of argument, criticism, or exhibiting your mastery over language or logic. That study is the best which teaches you to conquer this cycle of birth and death, which gives you the mental equipoise that is not affected by the prospect of death, or the blessings or blows of fate.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 05:24 am
real life wrote:
Where has macro-evolution ever been replicated and observed rather than inferred?


Where has creation ever been replicated and observed, full stop?

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:
Again, education is not for developing the faculty of argument, criticism, or exhibiting your mastery over language or logic.


Education is for the developing of faculty of argument, criticism and developing mastery over language and logic, or at least, it should be. If we do not develop these things, how are we to be able to think for ourselves?

Quote:
That study is the best which teaches you to conquer this cycle of birth and death, which gives you the mental equipoise that is not affected by the prospect of death, or the blessings or blows of fate.


More of your gibberish, I see.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:19 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
real life wrote:
Where has macro-evolution ever been replicated and observed rather than inferred?


Where has creation ever been replicated and observed, full stop?



Hi Wolf,

I'm quite comfortable with the position that both creation and evolution are unobservable and unprovable by the empirical method. Hence neither are strictly scientific hypotheses. Both must be inferred from evidence available.

How 'bout you?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:19 am
Quote:
Where has macro-evolution ever been replicated and observed rather than inferred?

The most famous example:
The Nile Cichlid fish in Lake Turkana. Here are an isolated species of fish that , by tectonics have been isolated about 40K years ago.The fish have evolved to the new genus level while still displaying basically the same genomes.
There are other examples , but presenting just one defines the process and the outcome.

Creationist thought needs to move on to other levels where there still may be some difficulties, otherwise they will be rendered obsolete. In fact, the very soul of "God directed origins" is held by the Intelligent Designers and, as far as most of the more skilled ones (like Mike Behe), they agree that the methods of evolution and the time frames we deal in are correct. They accept evolution.(I hope thats not a news flash). SO standard Crewationist thought is kind of floating off on its own, with not much support any longer.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:36 am
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
Where has macro-evolution ever been replicated and observed rather than inferred?

The most famous example:
The Nile Cichlid fish in Lake Turkana. Here are an isolated species of fish that , by tectonics have been isolated about 40K years ago.The fish have evolved to the new genus level while still displaying basically the same genomes.
There are other examples , but presenting just one defines the process and the outcome.

Creationist thought needs to move on to other levels where there still may be some difficulties, otherwise they will be rendered obsolete. In fact, the very soul of "God directed origins" is held by the Intelligent Designers and, as far as most of the more skilled ones (like Mike Behe), they agree that the methods of evolution and the time frames we deal in are correct. They accept evolution.(I hope thats not a news flash). SO standard Crewationist thought is kind of floating off on its own, with not much support any longer.


Hi Farmerman,

I appreciate your input. A little more detail would be helpful on this. Who actually observed this change take place and how the feat was replicated. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 08:35 am
Theres a book that I have at home. The title is "The Cichlid Fish, Natures Grand Experiment of Evolution"
Its by George Barlow, A UK scientist. Its publication date is 2000 or 2001,> I think the publisher is Perseus.

EO Wilson has also written extensively about these fish and 'macroevolutionary " leaps in short times.

There are other examples of living creatures, certain snail species, some tropical insects, and genera of rats.
Remember, the ability to actually observe species and higherevolution, is a function of the rapid rate of reproduction and fitting the foundation species into an entirely new but complementary niche.

Glacial retreats and interglacial migration have also been responsible for species of plantsdifferentiating themselves from the foundation stock.
Now that we routinely look at DNA and mDNA, we can see how fast speciation occurs and how "macroevolution" is just another name for rapid adaptation.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 10:52 am
Interesting intro by Barlow:
http://ib.berkeley.edu/labs/barlow/book.html

More info:
http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=46

I know this is a stupid question, but you are the expert and I'm just Frank's whipping boy: Are any of these cichlids not cichlids?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 03:20 pm
Im not an expert by any means. Im alayperson when it comes to the family Cichlidae. I put Barlows book on a student reading list for an undergrad course on Paleo that I had to teach. I wanted to open discussions on macro evolution and data that was available fromn recent species. Barlows book and some others , like Axel Wilson's more technical article on mDNA on Nile Cichlids, and
Eo Wilsons "Diversity of Life', Dave Furth (forget the title), and some others whose names escape me (Im in an RV not at home or at my office)

The mDNA sequences of the cichlids are, for most part, fairly close in structure and almost identical for those of Lake Turkana, Victoria, etc. The fact that they broke form the foundation population between 40000 and 12000 years ago from recurrent pulling apart of the rift valley had isolated many of the populations. Im sure that many just died, but bunches did evolve into new genera of the cichlid family. Remember, ecept for species, all other groupings by the Linnean nomenclture, are artificial categories mostly based upon morphologicl differences and (now) genomics. They are working on a new syetm of nomenclature that is less "Creationist" than linneaus. I personally dont think itll catch on, because it adds levels of crap that only can be connected by computer and it does downplay a lot of the Latin mumbo jumbo that many taxonomists just love.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:06 pm
OK, if you say you're not an expert. You are certainly way ahead of me. Perhaps you didn't realize how dumb my dumb question actually was:

I still don't understand. Are certain species of cichlids unable to mate with others?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:09 pm
The major and dramatic feature of east Africa is a gigantic tear in the earth's surface crust know as the Great Rift Valley. It's been ashimmyin' and ashakin' for dog knows how long. When that occurs, species are sometimes split by geography, each to develop along lines dictated by environment. In the case of th cichlids, the species originated in a single water course, but a shift in the Great Rift Valley created new water courses in which the cichlids lived, which water courses did not communicate. So the cichlids in each water system developed independently of one another.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:27 pm
When a cichlid meets a cichlid
A crossin' through the rift
Will the cichlid then say 'hey kid.'
'Hold still for my gift'

And will the cichlid once so gifted
produce some cichlid kids?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:31 pm
Ya know . . . it's hard to say what makes people wackier, drug intoxication or god intoxication . . .
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:38 pm
OH YEAH!
0 Replies
 
 

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