Evolution? How?

Are the clergy just as confused as the bible?

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Are the clergy just as confused as the bible?

Considering the thousands of Christian sects, cults worldwide I would say yes.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

So, is the "clergy" the messengers of god? Did the "clergy" write the bible? When you go to church, do you listen to the "clergy?"

The clergy, or more appropriately, several thousand years of priests of various persuasions have misrepresented the truth. They have done a pretty good job, don't you think? Even an educated person like you can't grasp it.

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xingu wrote:

Why do you insult God by making him the author of the Bible.

Why do you insult God by misrepresenting His word? Or are you a closet preacher?

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In this Iron Age, when darkness is enveloping the mind of man, any little lamp that can light the path is most welcome. That is why I advise you to resort to good deeds, good conduct and good behaviour, so that you may be established in the constant presence of the Lord. You must also strive to practise listening to ennobling and elevating words, ruminating on those teachings and putting into practise the teachings and experience the fruits thereof.

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Okay, seriously. We are getting off-topic now.

I have this sneaking suspicion as to why reasonable Creationists are so angry about the teaching of evolution in schools, whereas this problem is not happening in the UK (amonst reaosnable Creationists that is. In the UK, there are a few nutballs that want evolution dropped completely, despite the fact that as far as I know, evolution isn't taught unless you decide to do A-Level Biology. They also want religious views to spread into other parts of the curriculum, which is even scarier).

There is one important difference that I see religiously between the UK and the US.

In the UK, generally, church attendance is lower. Also, any politician that expresses his beliefs the way George W. Bush does (as in, practically broadcasting it in public) would be frowned upon. This is despite the fact that this country is a Christian country and our Head of State is "Defender of the Faith" and Head of a Christian denomination and that churches are mainly in the centre of a community.

In the US, the opposite is true. Church attendance is higher. Politicians are freely welcome to express their beliefs without being frowned upon by the majority. The Head of State is not the "Defender of the faith" and is not the head of a Christian denomination and shouldn't really be linked to any particular religion.

This is strange, wouldn't you agree?

The country that is supposed to be more secular, doesn't look like it on the outside and the the country that isn't supposed to be more secular, looks more secular on the outside than it really is.

There are also two more important differences, which I suspect to be the main problem.

In the US, it is required by law, for state schools to have a Pledge of Allegiance to the country and the flag. There is no such law in the UK.

Instead, in the UK, it is required by law, that state schools must provide religious education and daily acts of worship. Private schools are exempt from this law, but it doesn't matter, because the majority of them are Christian institutions anyway.

In place of the morning Pledge of Allegiance, British pupils are singing hymns and praying to God.

(I used to find this strange in my private school, a Christian institution, because of the number of Muslim pupils. Then I found out they weren't actually singing to the hymns and were just standing along with the rest of us, although they did go through with the motions of the prayer, even if they didn't say Amen.)

Anyway, over here pupils are undergoing an act of Christian worship in the mornings. They then also have religious education classes (obviously, not immediately afterwards and in some cases not every day), which by law, must be focused primarily on Christianity but may look at other religions as well.

(My Christian private school neglected to look at other religions. My first RE Teacher was an idiot, who kept hammering home Genesis, the Gospels and Acts, year in year out without even changing the content of his study material. My second RE Teacher liked to focus more on social issues like abortion and euthanasia).

I'm betting that the hostility amongst Creationists is due to a secular law, in a secular society amongst a religious community.

Is it any wonder that the Creationists are so hostile?

In the UK, Creationism is automatically taught in religious education classes (not science) in the form of Genesis. I'm sure every pupil has read Genesis and knows Creationism in its purest form.

Evolution is taught in science classes (although in my personal experience, I wasn't taught evolution until I chose my A-Levels and you don't have to do A-Levels, so you don't have to be taught evolution).

Contrary to belief, biological science courses in Universities respect your Creationist beliefs. Why they should, I have no idea, but they do.

What I find strange is that although evolution is optional in the UK and more people study Christianity and are taught Creationism, Evolution is more accepted over here.

I think that Evolutionism isn't as accepted, because it is the one view that is "forced" upon students. As far as I know, it's optional.

Maybe the curriculum has changed since I did it and maybe Evolutionism is now taught as well in the earlier years. What doesn't change the fact is most British people know about Creationism.

Therefore, I propose that to fully remain a truly secular society, the US must repeal the law and instate a new one which makes it compulsory for state schools to teach religious education and (to reflect the US' tradition of multi-culturalism) ensure that all faiths get equal time.

This, I'm sure, will stop all but the most virulent of Creationists from trying to interfere with science classes and make everyone happy.

It won't appease those Creationists who want to ban Evolution altogether and make sure only their viewpoints are taught, but who wants to appease those "thought police" anyway?

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Neologist

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Why do you insult God by misrepresenting His word?

Where did I misrepresent his word?

And please tell me what is his word.

Do you know?

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"Where did I misrepresent his word?

And please tell me what is his word.

Do you know?"

They "claim" to know, but that's what makes them look so inadequate. It comes from the spirit, and nobody can see it.

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Wolf

You say religion is taught in public schools. What are Muslim students taught? Are they required to be taught the Christian religion and not their religion in public schools?

In America we have written in our Bill of Rights that religion and state will be separated.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Not so in England.

And this is where, in my opinion, the problem lies. Conservative Christians want to destroy the wall that separates state and religion. As long as this wall exists there can be no formal religion taught in schools that are funded by government money (except in cases where a variety of religions are taught in social sciences). To do so would give the impression that the government is endorsing or supporting one religion over another.

That's why I ask, what are Muslims and other non-Christians students taught in religious classes in England. In America it would be unfair, disrespectful and unjust to require a non-Christian to be forced to take Christian religious classes while their beliefs are ignored.

To keep it simple you keep religion out of schools and in the family.

Evolution is a conflict between science and religion; between reality and mythology and mysticism. I don't know if this conflict will ever end.

I suppose this conflict has been with humans since the beginning. I can imagine the conflict 50,000 years ago.

Do we move to this location because we saw good hunting prospects or do we stay because the shamans bones say the gods don't want us to leave?

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xingu wrote:

Neologist

Quote:
Why do you insult God by misrepresenting His word?

Where did I misrepresent his word?

And please tell me what is his word.

Do you know?

When I show you what the bible says, you either ignore it or claim that somehow those cotton pickin' words must mean somethin' else. You continue to repeat the lies others have told you about the bible because you need those lies to justify your position.

Somehow you believe that if you paint Jehovah as the bogeyman, we should conclude the only other eventuality for mankind must be the ethereal experience you call the 'light.'

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Ok if i did not say anything you would all think you are right...

The tree of life is at the center of the universe and the sun encircles the earth... the metaphysical plane is flat not round, straight not curved.

You omit the spiritual kingdom of the soul and confuse it with the physical kingdom..

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neologist wrote:

xingu wrote:
Why do you insult God by making him the author of the Bible.
Why do you insult God by misrepresenting His word? Or are you a closet preacher?

How about if the Bible was the best of the holy men... but how HOLY are you? Do you "KNOW"???? What is being holy?

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xingu wrote:

Wolf

You say religion is taught in public schools. What are Muslim students taught? Are they required to be taught the Christian religion and not their religion in public schools?

Technically, in my school, only Christianity was taught and if you didn't like it, tough.

However, that's only because the law states that because our country is majorly Christian and has a long tradition of Christianity, that the main focus is Christianity.

I'm sure that in state schools, the religious education classes do go into other religions. It's just that because mine was a Christian institution, it didn't.

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In America we have written in our Bill of Rights that religion and state will be separated.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Not so in England.

I'm well aware of that. If you read all my post, you'll have seen some words to that effect.

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And this is where, in my opinion, the problem lies. Conservative Christians want to destroy the wall that separates state and religion. As long as this wall exists there can be no formal religion taught in schools that are funded by government money (except in cases where a variety of religions are taught in social sciences). To do so would give the impression that the government is endorsing or supporting one religion over another.

That's why I ask, what are Muslims and other non-Christians students taught in religious classes in England. In America it would be unfair, disrespectful and unjust to require a non-Christian to be forced to take Christian religious classes while their beliefs are ignored.

However, I propose that since America is such a multi-cultural society that no one religion is focused over the other. This would ensure that the Government doesn't seem to favour one religion over the other.

By studying all the religions, you can also develop a sense of atheism by comparing them all.

Look at our country.

Though the state enforces a religious education, do you see a whole country filled with Christian fundamentalists? I don't. If anything, I think religious education in this particular country has helped keep the country secular.

It's certainly helped prevent Creationists from trying to get a stranglehold on what is essentially a subject they have no right in meddling with.

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To keep it simple you keep religion out of schools and in the family.

Yes, but has it done you any good.

Comparing both UK and US, it doesn't seem to me that this policy has done any good. Obviously, you must keep religion away from the Government itself, but as for the schools?

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Evolution is a conflict between science and religion; between reality and mythology and mysticism. I don't know if this conflict will ever end.

No, I'm afraid it won't, though I'd like to see it end.

Some people's brains are just hard-wired not to accept certain things, and in the case of Creationists and their progeny, their brains are hard-wired to not accept Evolution, regardless of how much proof is there. Of course, this is broad brushing and I'm sure there are exceptions.

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When I show you what the bible says, you either ignore it or claim that somehow those cotton pickin' words must mean somethin' else.

Example please. Could you mean the flat earth, which is pretty evident when looking at all the references in the Bible?

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
When I show you what the bible says, you either ignore it or claim that somehow those cotton pickin' words must mean somethin' else.

Example please. Could you mean the flat earth, which is pretty evident when looking at all the references in the Bible?

I don't have to tell you that educated people still use the expression the 'four corners of the earth' when describing a world wide event. We also use the expression 'raining cats and dogs' and everyone seems to know what we mean. So when the bible uses expressions to describe situations or events in an unscientific way, a way that the common man can understand, who are we to trumpet our intellectual prowess?

It would be like a parent scolding a child for complaining about an 'owie' and withholding the band aid until the kid learns how to say laceration.

That being said, I find great wisdom in Isaiah's statement at Isaiah 40:22: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell."

But what I was particularly referring to is your insisting that the bible supports the concept of the immortal soul after having been shown many passages to the contrary. I don't ask you to believe them, mind you. Just admit they are there. I'll find the posts again if you need them.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

It's certainly helped prevent Creationists from trying to get a stranglehold on what is essentially a subject they have no right in meddling with.

Hi Wolf,

Citizens lose their rights if they express a religious point of view? I think not. Not in this country they don't.

Since you apparently don't understand Constitutional Law, let's leave you in science for just a minute longer:

Maybe you should go back and explain why so many of the scientists that we revere for laying the scientific foundation that we built the last two centuries of advancement on, were believers in God.

Were they not as bright as you? When they read the Bible did they miss all those contradictions that you think you can see so clearly (but they were just poor blinded ignorant fools )?

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There are two aspects to education: One involves collating facts about the external world and sharing them with students. The other is Wisdom. Wisdom involves gaining in-depth understanding of the knowledge that springs from within and imparting it to students. But the modern system of education gives the students only knowledge about the external world. It is culture or refinement that can develop a good personality and not this type of education. So, both education and culture are important.

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real life wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

It's certainly helped prevent Creationists from trying to get a stranglehold on what is essentially a subject they have no right in meddling with.

Hi Wolf,

Citizens lose their rights if they express a religious point of view? I think not. Not in this country they don't.

When did I say that? I never said anybody lose any rights.

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Since you apparently don't understand Constitutional Law, let's leave you in science for just a minute longer:

No, Constitutional Law is something a non-American wouldn't understand.

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Maybe you should go back and explain why so many of the scientists that we revere for laying the scientific foundation that we built the last two centuries of advancement on, were believers in God.

Were they not as bright as you? When they read the Bible did they miss all those contradictions that you think you can see so clearly (but they were just poor blinded ignorant fools )?

What? You are confusing another debate we're having with this one. I've kept the one about God's existence separate from this one as much possible.

Look, God is something personal. They may believe in God, yes, but the majority tend to keep their belief separate from science. They don't let their belief influence their job.

They may have found something and then said, "Oh, I have looked upon the face of God" or "Only God could have done something like this", but that's an afterthought and they certainly didn't let it influence their work. In that respect, they kept God out of science, by keeping him separate from the work.

They cannot empirically prove God exists, so they keep him separate. They merely state those things in private.

What some Creationists are doing is to influence what has been proved through empirical evidence to be more true than its antithesis. They are trying to get schools to teach something that has no empirical evidence and hence has no place being taught in a science class.

This isn't about belief in God.

This is about, keeping him out of science as much as possible.

God is at the end of all this and we haven't even scratched the surface. To try and factor him in now could end up skewing the real picture.

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Neologist

People use the expression "four corners of the earth" because it is found in the Bible. The author of that phrase believed the earth was a square flat earth.

If the earth was square and flat people like you would use this phrase to prove that God wrote the Bible and knew the shape of the earth; flat and square. But the earth is not flat and square nor flat and circular so people like you try to find excuses to explain away this Biblical blunder.

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That being said, I find great wisdom in Isaiah's statement at Isaiah 40:22: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell."

Yup. Pretty easy to put a tent on a flat earth, circular or square, but damn hard on a sphere.

By the way The New English Bible says it this way;
That God sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers..

Again, vaulted roofs sit well on flat surfaces but not spheres.

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But what I was particularly referring to is your insisting that the bible supports the concept of the immortal soul after having been shown many passages to the contrary.

No. I say NDE supports the immorality of the soul, which I spoke about on another thread, as you well know since you were involved in the discussion. The Bible is wrong, IMO, to say the soul is mortal. By making the ignorant believe in mortal souls religions can use fear and the brutality of an evil God to frighten them into believing any religious dogma they choose to throw out. No different then someone putting a gun to your head and saying believe or die.

If I gave you the impression that the Bible supports the immortal soul then perhaps I didn't express myself very well. I do not believe the soul is mortal. I cannot believe in a loving God if I am to believe this same God will kill our soul because of our faith. But this appears to be what the Bible wants you to believe. I know there are a lot of Christians that want you to believe that. Fear is a very effective way to make the ignorant believe.

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xingu wrote:

Neologist

People use the expression "four corners of the earth" because it is found in the Bible. The author of that phrase believed the earth was a square flat earth.

If the earth was square and flat people like you would use this phrase to prove that God wrote the Bible and knew the shape of the earth; flat and square. But the earth is not flat and square nor flat and circular so people like you try to find excuses to explain away this Biblical blunder.

Quote:
That being said, I find great wisdom in Isaiah's statement at Isaiah 40:22: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell."

Yup. Pretty easy to put a tent on a flat earth, circular or square, but damn hard on a sphere.

By the way The New English Bible says it this way;
That God sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers..

Again, vaulted roofs sit well on flat surfaces but not spheres.

Quote:
But what I was particularly referring to is your insisting that the bible supports the concept of the immortal soul after having been shown many passages to the contrary.

No. I say NDE supports the immorality of the soul, which I spoke about on another thread, as you well know since you were involved in the discussion. The Bible is wrong, IMO, to say the soul is mortal. By making the ignorant believe in mortal souls religions can use fear and the brutality of an evil God to frighten them into believing any religious dogma they choose to throw out. No different then someone putting a gun to your head and saying believe or die.

If I gave you the impression that the Bible supports the immortal soul then perhaps I didn't express myself very well. I do not believe the soul is mortal. I cannot believe in a loving God if I am to believe this same God will kill our soul because of our faith. But this appears to be what the Bible wants you to believe. I know there are a lot of Christians that want you to believe that. Fear is a very effective way to make the ignorant believe.

I'll get back to your post later, but I just had to point out that the vast majority of people who say they believe in the bible believe, as you do, that the soul is immortal. The priesthood keeps them in fear with the myth of a burning hell.

Interesting post. I'll catch you later.

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