cicerone imposter wrote:"God has reasons... do the ends justify the means? Maybe if you are God. I see that you are not willing to cut God any slack. God has foreknowledge... he know that if he doe not act in time that all could be lost... Now are you going to argue with that?"
Yes, a million times yes. Nay, a billion times yes.
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. God so loved the world that he created natural disasters and diseases that kills millions. Ever wonder why christians pray to god for their health? God would listen to one prayer, but can willy-nilly kill thousands of innocent people without good cause? Is that an example of god's love? What about children born with defects, HIV/AIDS, or those that die at birth? God so loved the world, that he commands "thou shalt not kill," but allows the killing of a burgler, approves of slavery, and is homophobic about gays and lesbians. How does christians reconcile all of this in their heads?
If the God of the Bible has caused so many "disasters" then what for God sake is the purpose of the devil, to spread love? When you figure out the answer to that one then you might know a little about the Bible.
No one knows what "doulos" [greek] is? Well if you were all not so busy trying to convict God then you might know. A doulos in the true sense is a person who becomes a slave because they love another person to such an extent that they want to serve them...
When a person comes to a knowledge of Jesus Christ they wipe the male spit off of his face and they confess "him" from sin and as their personal lord and savior. When a person comes to God they see through all of the "spin" to find the true "sinless" God within. The God of love, justice and true virtue.
God has had to "deal" with humans too...
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath
dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Who created satan? Did god create everything or not? So in god's creation, he knew that satan would "come into being" and do all that bad stuff. So satan is responsible for all the "natural disasters, disease, stillborn, disfigurements, and sins of the world." So man is now relegated to begging god to help us with our health while satan has the ultimate choice on how it turns out. Or can god override satan's actions? Especially when it involves you or your family member? It's rather sad that those innocent babies are born disfigured, deseased, and disfigured because of satan. Does prayer help or not? Why do the religious spend an inordinate amount of time praying if satan chooses the final outcome? Blame it all on satan. That's the ticket; an answer for everything christians want to believe.
cicerone imposter wrote:Who created satan? Did god create everything or not? So in god's creation, he knew that satan would "come into being" and do all that bad stuff. So satan is responsible for all the "natural disasters, disease, stillborn, disfigurements, and sins of the world." So man is now relegated to begging god to help us with our health while satan has the ultimate choice on how it turns out. Or can god override satan's actions? Especially when it involves you or your family member? It's rather sad that those innocent babies are born disfigured, deseased, and disfigured because of satan. Does prayer help or not? Why do the religious spend an inordinate amount of time praying if satan chooses the final outcome? Blame it all on satan. That's the ticket; an answer for everything christians want to believe.
The Bible paints a picture of God having "vengeance" on satan in the end... but... is it not again, as in the old testament, satan falling upon his own sword? God cannot violate free will. God does not possess. The Bible says that when it rains it rains equally on the just and unjust. It is just that some have the fortitude to build a boat for when the rains flood the land. God is this boat that carries us to salvation.
If God asks you to kill your son/mother/father/sister/brother or any member of your family, would you do it? Would you put your faith above those you love? All I need is a simple 'yes' or 'no', explanations are optional..
The Bible provides a very clear answer to that question.
Deut 13:6-16
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
cicerone imposter wrote:If God asks you to kill your son/mother/father/sister/brother or any member of your family, would you do it? Would you put your faith above those you love? All I need is a simple 'yes' or 'no', explanations are optional..
The Bible provides a very clear answer to that question.
Deut 13:6-16
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
I think what you are trying to do here is to apply the times of the past to todays times. Today we stick people in prisons so they can rot away in a cell as a form of torture to spend every day thinking about what crimes they have committed. In the past there were not maximum security prisons and "gitmo".
When you look at what life was really like living as a small vulnerable tribe living in the desert you might understand why the laws escalated to the point they did.
You might wonder that if these laws had not been as such that we might not be having this conversation today... the Hebrews and their "covenant" would never have survived.
People are still on death row in our country and teens have been on death row too. The Bible seems so crude but when you really think about it a ghost of many of the practices are still in use today. Many have changed because there are modern conveniences that have made the practices less of a concern.
How would you like to live a mile from a leper colony? You cannot take the times of the past and expect them to line up with the standards of today. Technology was non existent and life was crude and sometimes drastic measures were the only guarantee for survival. There were no hospitals and medications. There were no condoms and sexual promiscuity in a small tribe can bring the men to fighting over the women.
This was why there was such a complex set of manners and customs.
Though these customs seem crude to us today but in essence they sustained this peculiar tribe and these customs are the reasons we are still discussing the Hebrew people and their God today.
cicerone imposter wrote:Who created satan? Did god create everything or not? So in god's creation, he knew that satan would "come into being" and do all that bad stuff. So satan is responsible for all the "natural disasters, disease, stillborn, disfigurements, and sins of the world." So man is now relegated to begging god to help us with our health while satan has the ultimate choice on how it turns out. Or can god override satan's actions? Especially when it involves you or your family member? It's rather sad that those innocent babies are born disfigured, deseased, and disfigured because of satan. Does prayer help or not? Why do the religious spend an inordinate amount of time praying if satan chooses the final outcome? Blame it all on satan. That's the ticket; an answer for everything christians want to believe.
God doesn't have to know the future any more than you have to read the last page of the whodunit.
God created humans as perfect moral agents with free will. That you would have preferred us all to be perfect robots is a problem you will have to deal with. The bible provides no answer to that question.
War and crime and sickness and death are
consequences of the rebellion in Eden. They are not part of God's purpose; He promised in Genesis 3:15 to provide a redemption for mankind, so that all who never knew him could have a chance to experience the life Adam and Eve lost.
The scene is so outrageously simple even Joe Sixpack's idiot cousin Cletis can understand it. However, it's no surprise that highly intelligent ones like yourself have difficulty. If you keep looking for the esoteric answer, all you will find are esoteric questions.
cicerone imposter wrote:If God asks you to kill your son/mother/father/sister/brother or any member of your family, would you do it? Would you put your faith above those you love? All I need is a simple 'yes' or 'no', explanations are optional...
What did our government not so many years ago do to David Karesh? (I am not defending David or the actions of the Government)
Well they burnt him out... all his wives, all (or most) his friends and all of his children...
I seriously myself did not like David Karesh. I thought he was highly immoral and a criminal. I thought his ideas of the Bible were fantasy and that he was delusional. If this is not too strong I would say he was possessed as was also Manson.
Now, I do not condone this action nor do I understand it. But, what would America be like now if David was now "ruling" half of Texas? I guess only God knows the answer to that.
God is omniscient, all knowing... God is not the reader but the narrator.
Quote, " God cannot violate free will." Why then do christians pray to god for selfish wants?
Why do christians pray to god for "the food we eat?"
cicerone imposter wrote:Quote, " God cannot violate free will." Why then do christians pray to god for selfish wants?
Some do because they don't understand the meaning of prayer.
cicerone imposter wrote:Why do christians pray to god for "the food we eat?"
Many do because they feel God is the true source of their needs.
real world entry point .
The Pa legislature is now taking testimony on the teaching of Intelligent DEsign. The IDers wish to stymie the case before the Federal District involving the requirement imposed upon the Dover Pa science teachers to teach ID in the science curriculum. If this passes, I shall never make fun of Mississppi and Alabama again.
If god is the source for food, why are so many starving to death? Does god selectively give food to some and not to others? What ever happened to free will?
cicerone imposter wrote:Why do christians pray to god for "the food we eat?"
Are you talking about spiritual food or physical food?
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Comment
In the Gospels we were instructed to pray and ask for our daily bread... yet, in the epistles we just thank God for our daily bread that was supplied for us 2000 years ago through Christ Jesus...
We do not have to "ask/pray" for our daily bread like in the lords prayer (which was addressed to only the Hebrews)... but we (the church of the body) just claim it and the claim ticket is the "gift" of the holy spirit within and believing... "believing" is the rock that God chose to be the cornerstone of the church.
Philippians 4:19
But my God shall supply all your
need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 11:1
Now faith is the
substance of things hoped for, the
evidence of things not seen.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried
with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
farmerman wrote:real world entry point .
The Pa legislature is now taking testimony on the teaching of Intelligent DEsign. The IDers wish to stymie the case before the Federal District involving the requirement imposed upon the Dover Pa science teachers to teach ID in the science curriculum. If this passes, I shall never make fun of Mississppi and Alabama again.
Parents have the responsibility to educate their children, right? If they feel the state curricula is lacking, why not teach the creation lesson to their children themselves? It is, after all, a much simpler concept.
cicerone imposter wrote:If god is the source for food, why are so many starving to death? Does god selectively give food to some and not to others? What ever happened to free will?
I've been under the impression that the earth produces more than enough food for all. Am I wrong? I don't actually have the statistics.
If I am right, then the starvation is not the fault of the provider. It is, rather, the fault of the (free will of the) distributor.
Bread that was supplied two thousand years ago? LOL In the mean time, this world has suffered from famine and starvation. So now, you pray before you eat to thank god for the bread he gave two thousand years ago. The BIG PROBLEM with your statement is that most christians say, "we thank thee for the food which we are about to eat."
Rex; Chill out.
What about the so-called Lord's prayer would not be addressed to Christians?
Also, CI is talking about regular old ordinary bread like the kind you use for your PB&J sandwich. You know; the stuff people are dying for the want of.
cicerone imposter wrote:Bread that was supplied two thousand years ago? LOL In the mean time, this world has suffered from famine and starvation. So now, you pray before you eat to thank god for the bread he gave two thousand years ago. The BIG PROBLEM with your statement is that most christians say, "we thank thee for the food which we are about to eat."
God gives everything that is on the earth to mankind,Hes the general provider!
WE are merely ants and our goal on this planet is to use our intelligence with our heart,share all nature gifts and ressources, and not selfishly with greed and anger keep it in one place(in the Usa).
Every country has a great role to play with his culture and character in this community of the nations.
America is called "embodimement of material wealth"by God and has this apparent power at this moment of human history...
It is of course a Gods gift yo this nation and is not made by ants who live in this area of the world.
Like other empires Egypt,Rome,Greece...it is subjected to decline one day or the other when God estimates it at the right moment...
Pride of many Americans are very similar to the same of the Romans or the Egyptians in the ancient time... :wink:
