maporsche
 
  4  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 07:56 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

You, personally, I don't know which candidates you support, or your rationale. Certain other people here sit on my posts and vote me down within five minutes, 24 hours per day. I frankly don't understand why you are so vehement in condemning Sanders, but these others defend the corporate shills and I feel comfortable trashing them right back.


And this attitude, in part, is why your side won’t make any progress.

You prefer to insult people’s who aren’t 100% on board with your ideas instead of convincing them why your way is the best

So you think calling me a corporate shill makes me AT ALL likely to listen to why free college is a good idea?

I’m probably 80% on your side, and your attitude is offputing to ME, I can’t even imagine how you think this will bring independents to your side, or even Republicans.


You don’t win by insulting your potential allies.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:01 am
@hightor,
The polls gave evidence of that assertion you quoted. Bernie is almost never careless with his claims.

https://www.salon.com/2017/01/14/americans-overwhelmingly-support-bernie-sanders-economic-policies-so-howd-we-end-up-here/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/poll-medicare-for-all-public-option-bernie-sanders-plan-support-2018-3
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:11 am
The greatest strength we have are the stories of parents dying, children dying, teenagers crying as their parents tell them the insurance company disallowed the treatment that would change their lives: these people will open and close rallies around this country.

We will win because people shouldn’t die in order for Establishment Republicans and Democrats to become multimillionaires by taking payoffs from a draconian pharmaceutical industry.

All your bickering in the face of this is meaningless.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:20 am
@Lash,
Support for a Medicare for all public option plan is not the same as supporting every single issue Sander's is for. (I doubt this talk of "corporate shills" is as popular.) As expected support among for UHC or Medicare for all is supported by 75% of democrats and independents but only 36% of republicans support it. Support among republicans goes up with the public option plan (which democrats wanted with Obamacare) among republicans to 64%. Since for any plan to pass, we would need republicans, the Public option would seem to have the most overall support.

Moreover, after reading Sander's letter, which was not a good letter at all, I don't think his victim playing is going to go over so well when they are other progressives or democrats out there who are more positive which would appeal to a larger more inclusive demographic.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:25 am
The only politicians I attack, or chide, are the ones that take indecent amounts of cash from those who pay bribes to get a certain anti 99% bias to their votes. If that excites anger, screw it. Get angry.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:31 am
@revelette1,
He’s telling the truth. That’s unpopular with your side of the D party but very popular with our side. Independents who left politics because of corruption have been attracted back because of Bernie’s people’s policies. He now has the name recognition that the media squashed last go round.

I think calling out the establishment Third Way for lying about the most popular political figure in the country as he tries to help us with the fight for $15, universal healthcare, and a future free of fossil fuel will work in his favor.

We’ll see.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:53 am
@Lash,
Quote:
The polls gave evidence of that assertion you quoted.

Lash, it doesn't surprise me that some of the American people responded that way. But they're responding to an abstract concept not a detailed and workable plan. I'd like to see further questioning along the lines of, "Would you support Medicare for All if it meant a 5% increase in federal taxes? 10%? 25%?" (And what's the plan for dealing with the private health insurance industry which employs 300,000 people?) Same with free college tuition — great idea. But just how will we pay for it? "Some" Americans don't like seeing their taxes increased even if the increase is used to fund programs beneficial to them and their communities. And that "some" will turn into a lot more once the MAGA machine and the Russian bots start "explaining" it to the electorate.

EDIT: Lash, you posted a Bernie ad last week and I was struck by how little it said. Just a bunch of specially selected ordinary Americans going about their ordinary lives being pandered to by ordinary political advertising — really a tiresome, cliche-ridden, Rockwellian version of Reagan's "Morning in America". I don't watch TV but I hope it's not typical of all his campaign ads....
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 09:56 am
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  4  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 10:07 am
@hightor,
Precisely.

I support all of the things Sanders supports, in the abstract.

We start seeing AN ACTUAL PLAN TO GET ANY OF THIS IMPLEMENTED (I mean he’s only had 30 years to flesh a plan out) and we will see what happens to the support for me and all Americans (and I’m a guy more than willing to pay more taxes.....what about those that aren’t so willing?)


Can anyone, for example, tell me what the Medicare For All plan actually means? How much will my taxes go up? Will the program run a deficit? How many years until it’s implemented? What about the gaps in Medicare? Will I need supplemental insurance? What about dental and vision? + 1000 more questions.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 10:18 am
Hooray!!!!!

Welcome to the REVOLUTION!!

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals/
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 10:45 am
It’s still shocking every time I confront how poor people die preventable deaths to save billionaires and Wall Street from paying the same share of their money as we do.

See the change it will make when they do.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 12:32 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
Welcome to the REVOLUTION!!

This proposal would make revolutionary changes to the US tax system. And there are lots of things I like about it.
Quote:
The downsides of Sanders' proposal? The big fear is the reduction in capital investments caused by taxing wealthier individuals at a much higher tax rate. If upper-income individuals have less disposable cash on hand, we could see less spending, less job creation, and fewer businesses started.

Along those same lines, taxing capital gains and income as ordinary income could be the real economic killer. The allure of holding investments over the long-term is that you'll be rewarded with a lower tax rate. Not only is this beneficial in that it allows an investor to keep more income, but it also encourages good investing habits, since compounding works in favor of the long-term investor. Removing this incentive could have a profoundly negative impact on well-to-do investors, and stocks in general.

Finally, Sanders' employer tax could very well wind up passed along to consumers in the form of higher prices, or be taken out of employees' wages (or perhaps some combination of the two). Substantially higher corporate costs could reduce foreign investment in U.S. companies even further, and could bring hiring to a standstill.

Sean Williams

This analysis is not mine and I don't know how accurate it is. But I'm posting it because it seemed pretty even-handed as compared to analyses from the Wall Street Journal, Fortune, and other critics. I think it's unlikely that anyone running on an "I'll raise taxes" pledge would get elected by a broad enough margin (if at all) to institute such wide-ranging fiscal reforms.

The benefit of incrementalism is that small reforms can be accomplished, a few at a time, debated and implemented without the drama and resistance which would accompany a plan described as "revolutionary". I think progressives in Congress would require much more than a bare majority to pass this sort of legislation. And I don't think progressives have those numbers.

But one good thing about the plan — if it were put into place and if it did cause the economy to contract the economic slowdown would lower our country's greenhouse gas emissions!
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 02:17 pm
@hightor,
I used to be afraid of running off the Uber-wealthy and the benefits that I thought came with their presence- the innovation of Silicon Valley, etc- but, the gulf has become too wide to stomach.

I look around and see that the Uber-wealthy hide billions off-shore- when they ALREADY get obscene tax breaks.

So, for me, no further generations of hard-working decent people should be marginalized, held away from medical care by falsely inflated costs, etc.

The world is tired of their hording, paying for laws to be changed that make their lives EVEN easier while consigning others to early death.

National strikes are coming.

Their free ride a la Bill Clinton/Third Way is coming to an abrupt end. I think you can bet on it—Bernie or not.

Glad you like part of the plan. I love it.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 02:22 pm
Bernie is actually just a cog in the machinery. Now that a movement is born it is up to all of us to make it happen.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 02:34 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Now that a movement is born it is up to all of us to make it happen.

Letting something be born when you could have aborted it? Unusual.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 02:42 pm
@edgarblythe,
Absolutely.
——————————
To the general public:

I hope I’m not repeating myself. Apologies if so.

Bernie’s incredible function was giving voice to millions of like-minded people who already had the same complaints against the US status quo, corruption, who noted the perversion of the highest and best ideas of the founding of this bold experiment, and knew there had to be a better way. Knew our lawmakers were actively changing our structure to pave for profit.

Some of us asked Bernie to run, and couldn’t believe he actually did.

We coalesced around him, met each other, and now, we’re operating like an amazing single-minded organism. It is astonishing that we know each other by our beliefs and the policies we pursue.

We respect Bernie and love him for what he and social media has done for us, but we know and he knows, it’s on us now.

Establishment Dems tell him to ‘call us off’. He tried in 2016. Nobody ‘calls us off’.

It’s literally life and death to a lot of Americans.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 03:48 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

It’s still shocking every time I confront how poor people die preventable deaths to save billionaires and Wall Street from paying the same share of their money as we do.

See the change it will make when they do.

You think that money can buy everything, but that is a naive view of how economics works.

Let me ask you this: do you think that if enough money was taxed and spent, it would be possible to reduce CO2 emissions to zero? Think about how the economy works and then let me know what's really possible and what's not by taxing and spending money.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 03:54 pm
@edgarblythe,
I was not ignoring you, EB--my ISP crapped out on me, which has been a problem lately. Immediately after reading your post, this is what I attempted to reply:

Quote:
I condemn Sanders because he used the Democratic Party to further his personal ambition, but did not play the party game the way it's always been done. Having failed to secure the nomination, he did not go out to campaign for the standard bearer. Even if campaigning for Clinton was more than he could stomach, he did not go out to campaign for candidates for Congress, other than a few appearances in his immediate region. That has been expected of all party members, whether or not they secure a nomination, virtually since Jackson founded the Democratic Party in 1825. He also pandered to the electorate with promises he knew he could not keep, which makes him, in my view, just another self-serving politician, and no different from any other Democrat or Republican whom people are happy to brand political hacks. His interference in the 2016 campaign may well have put Trump in the White Hose by creating a wide swathe of sulking voters who stayed home on election day.

Whether or not that's true, he's another geezer, and the party needs young blood, new faces and realistic policies. I don't see Mr. Sanders doing anything in that direction.

All of which being said, I come from a conservative Democrat tradition, and tend not to be impressed with campaign promises which don't further and protect organized labor, farmers and all members of the working class. I think promising universal higher education is not just unrealistic, but cynical and self-serving. It also doesn't put food on anyone's table, and it doesn't help people to get and keep jobs that will put food on the table. In fact, it is an elitist goal, and that offends me.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 03:58 pm
@livinglava,
That was a pretty desperate reach around all that billionaires paying their fare share CAN pay for.

Ask me a reasonable question, anc I’ll be glad to answer.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Dec, 2018 04:05 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta: Lie, lie, lie about Sanders not campaigning for Clinton
Setanta: Even if you realize I just lied my ass off about Sanders, it’s ok cause he’s old.

He campaigned more for that disgusting gas bag than she did for herself after June.



 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.19 seconds on 11/26/2024 at 09:46:12