georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 09:48 am
@revelette3,
I think your analysis at the end is likely accurate - hogwash it is.

Nancy Pelosi's initial reluctance was based on sound reasoning. However it disappeared entirely after the failure of the Mueller investigation. Soon afterwards for some hard-to-understand reason she jumped on the later emerging Biden/Ukraine matter. The merits of just what might have been her political calculations in all this are very hard to divine ( certainly nothing good for Democrats has come of it). She sat on the rather flimsy articles of Impeachment for over a month after dropping any judicial effort for additional testimony, and demanded that the Senate do it instead. . The very weak case for impeachment was quickly rejected in the Senate - as nearly everyone predicted. Democrats are now left with the spectacle of the weirdly comical Schiff/Nadler exhibition of a weak case and the uncontrolled rage of Speaker Pelosi, all continuing as the Biden campaign collapses and a likely bitter divide emerges from within the Democrat Party.
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 10:07 am
@georgeob1,
Pretty solid impeachment case. Good evidence trump was acting totally out of narcissistic self-interest not in the national interest. Lockstep republican refusal to look at the evidence and vote solely to protect their own cushy jobs and corrupt power.
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 10:13 am
@revelette3,
She was definitely in the hot seat. She resisted impeachment despite being heavily criticized by the "squad", other progressive House members, and left-wing Democrats in general. We saw that here on A2K — she was accused (of course) of being a Republican. She knew what he'd say if he were acquitted and how it would feed his ego, but as long as there was no proof of an impeachable act she could stick with her decision. But once the Ukraine shakedown came to light the Democrats had to do something and the impeachment process was just about the only mechanism they had since Trump was basically going to stonewall everything. I think she may have expected a few Republican votes but I don't think she really believed that he'd be convicted. It was a calculated risk and it might have worked out a little better, but it had to be addressed. It was probably better to allow Trump his moment to brag in the spotlight than have the subpoenas resisted and have a lengthy court process. The story isn't over yet; this is just a bad chapter. We can expect Trump to make more mistakes and say more stupid things; his post-impeachment glow will fade. I think your analysis is sound.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 10:19 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Pretty solid impeachment case.

Not really. He was acquitted.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 10:29 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However it disappeared entirely after the failure of the Mueller investigation.

Once again, the Mueller investigation wasn't a "failure". It wasn't supposed to arrive at a politically useful conclusion for one political party or the other. It succeeded in its investigation of Russian interference in the '16 election and led to a number of indictments.
Quote:
Democrats are now left with the spectacle of the weirdly comical Schiff/Nadler exhibition of a weak case ...

The case was actually quite strong — it just wasn't as strong as the Republican's fear of Trump.
Quote:
and the uncontrolled rage of Speaker Pelosi...

Your interpretation. It looked like legitimate disgust to me.
Quote:
all continuing as the Biden campaign collapses...

We can only hope so. Thanks, Trump!
Quote:
and a likely bitter divide emerges from within the Democrat Party.

Maybe. Maybe not. Trump could still manage to unite the Democrats and appall independents.
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 10:59 am
Who’s Really Shredding Standards on Capitol Hill?

Naming the alleged whistle-blower is much worse than tearing up a speech.

Quote:
Last week, the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, said a lot without speaking a word. At the close of President Trump’s State of the Union address, she calmly, deliberately and now famously tore her copy in two and tossed it down with a shrug, declaring her disdain for its contents with aplomb.

This simple gesture sent a strong message. Most speakers are expressionless during State of the Union addresses or they come close; Speaker John Boehner couldn’t quite mask his “micro-expressions” of frustration during President Barack Obama’s address in 2015.

Speaker Pelosi offered a cri de coeur in comparison, as she intended. The speech was “a manifesto of mistruths,” she said during a news conference two days later. “It was necessary to get the attention of the American people to say, ‘This is not true.’” And she succeeded, perhaps beyond her expectations. Violating congressional traditions to make a point is itself a longstanding tradition for good reason.

Republicans heard that message loud and clear, denouncing her incivility, accusing her of shredding “decades of tradition” and demanding her resignation. It was the “most classless act ever conducted in Congress,” Ian Miles Cheong, the managing editor of the conservative website Human Events, charged.

But was it? Not by a long shot; when it comes to misconduct, Congress has a long history. Congressmen have pulled guns on each other. They’ve shoved and punched each other, and smacked at foes with fireplace tongs. They’ve engaged in mass brawls, toppling desks, tossing spittoons and, in one case, yanking off a toupee. The most famous violence in congressional history is the caning of the abolitionist Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts by Representative Preston Brooks of South Carolina on the Senate floor in 1856, but it was not an anomaly.

Nor is Ms. Pelosi alone in violating traditions for all to see; it was far from the first time that members of Congress met alleged lies with bold displays of open contempt. In 1790, Representative Aedanus Burke of South Carolina showed his feelings with a flourish after Alexander Hamilton, the Treasury secretary, slurred the Southern militia during an Independence Day speech. Hamilton had said that Southern troops were dispirited and in disarray before the arrival of Gen. Nathanael Greene. Burke — outraged and hoping to impress folks back home — used the theater of Congress to have his say. Turning toward the visitor gallery, he declared, “In the face of this assembly and in the presence of this gallery … I give the lie to Colonel Hamilton.” Onlookers were stunned.

Representative Louie Gohmert of Texas did much the same when President Obama discussed his health care plan before the House in 2009, waving a handwritten sign that read, “What Plan?” “The things he was saying were certainly not true of the only bill we had at the time,” Mr. Gohmert later said. On that same night, Representative Joe Wilson of South Carolina shouted “You lie!” at the president for a similar reason.

By far, the most skilled practitioners of this showy statecraft were Southern slaveholders in the decades leading up to the Civil War. Threatened by even the hint of opposition to slavery, they used bold public threats during debate to frighten their foes into compliance or silence, tossing off insults or dangling duel challenges to set an example. Faced with the choice of a fistfight or a duel — or the humiliation of avoiding one — most men backed down or held back. For Southerners, transgressing rules was part of the point; it was a show of power.

Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky used the same form of showmanship when he exposed the alleged whistle-blower’s name during impeachment proceedings last Tuesday. Days after Chief Justice John Roberts refused to read a question from Mr. Paul that revealed the name, Mr. Paul did the deed himself. During a period reserved for impeachment speeches, he read his question aloud while standing next to a large blue poster with the name in bold yellow, endangering the whistle-blower and violating the spirit of whistle-blower protection laws in the process; although those laws are meant to protect informants from retaliation, they don’t explicitly stop members of Congress or the president from revealing names. Tradition and ethics alone keep them silent.

Although not strictly speaking illegal, Mr. Paul’s actions were wrong, and some Republican colleagues said as much, privately admitting that they “probably” wouldn’t have done it. But for Mr. Paul, violating norms was the point. By exposing the name — and getting away with it — he was warning off potential whistle-blowers-to-be.

Did he succeed? We don’t yet know, though the bar of success is low; prevent one potential informant from stepping forward, or even give one pause, and Mr. Paul has scored a victory. President Trump’s public name-calling and bullying have done much the same, frightening people into compliance for fear of vengeance in Washington or back home.

Mr. Paul’s stunt shows us the real power of such transgressions. Incivility is one thing; bullying people into silence is quite another. The former scores points. The latter potentially warps the balance of power between Congress and the executive branch, and smothers the protections that make government go. These are the sins that should merit our outrage, get us out campaigning and march us to polling places. The defense of our system of government demands no less.

nyt/freeman
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 11:06 am
@hightor,
Come now. The supposed whistle-blower is nothing more than a partisan dirty trickster for the Democrats, and it is right and proper that his lies are exposed and challenged.

Shame on the Democrats for corrupting the whistle-blower law and turning it into a weapon against innocent people in their witch-hunts.

Bravo to the Republicans for standing up to this. In a civilized nation, the accused has the right to present a defense, and that includes exposing the Democrats and their dirty tricks.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 11:09 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Once again, the Mueller investigation wasn't a "failure". It wasn't supposed to arrive at a politically useful conclusion for one political party or the other.

That is incorrect. The point of the Mueller investigation was to damage a president that the Democrats disagree with.


hightor wrote:
It succeeded in its investigation of Russian interference in the '16 election and led to a number of indictments.

But it failed at its goal of damaging the President.


hightor wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Democrats are now left with the spectacle of the weirdly comical Schiff/Nadler exhibition of a weak case ...

The case was actually quite strong

Not really. What the President was accused of doing was not in any way wrongdoing.


hightor wrote:
it just wasn't as strong as the Republicans' fear of Trump.

There was no fear. There was only the reality that the President did not do anything wrong.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 01:19 pm
@hightor,
I wonder if that's fair, given his positioning in the senate. He's positioned as an ideological outcast, the lone socialist in a sea of pro-business senators. So when you say: "he doesn't try to work with other people to actually write passable bills", it could well be that the opposite is true: that people who write passable bills don't try to work with him... That's precisely how Hillary put it: "nobody wants to work with him". I.e. ostracism.
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 01:39 pm
@Olivier5,
I believe the ostracism point has some merit. Sen. Sanders was, for a long time, the "crazy socialist" in the Senate, who, when it was convenient, caucused with the Democrats, but did not otherwise do much for them. I believe his success in getting the enthusiastic support of roughly 26% of Democrat primary voters in 2016 was a bit unnerving to the Democrat establishment, and, as we have seen, it has led to the subsequent emergence of a far Left wing in the party - a still unresolved issue.

Sanders is hard for them to ignore now. Billionaire Mike Bloomberg's ongoing effort to buy the nomination is likely to bring the underlying issues to the foreground in the coming weeks and months.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 01:50 pm
@oralloy,
pretty much what everyone exprcted given the
Iickspittle republicans' ability to pretend evidence doesn't exist and abject surrender to trumps vitriol.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 02:28 pm
@MontereyJack,
Bullying is what consertive republicans do all the time. It works to shut some people up. Invective discourse is what many educated republicans do on this site in an attempt to quiet opposition to their vaunted opinion. If you want to see proof of my opinion just read some of Georges posts.
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 02:55 pm
@oralloy,
This is nonsemnse. Yhe reaction among the diplomatic community and the military and intelligence community before the whistleblower came on the scene when they heard about what trump was doing and the lack of any sort of justification for it was shock and appalled disbelief at his actkons. Dems had nothing to do with that. The professionals were incredulouds trump coulddo that to an ally on the front lines in great danger. Turned out their concern was swell placed. Thats why trump deserved impeachment. Shame on the gop for caving to him.

MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 02:59 pm
@oralloy,
No. Its because they are nonsense and quite often vicious nonsense
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 03:18 pm
@oralloy,
No its abouta prez who hascommited a seemingly endless streamof malfeasances in ofFice. I thought we should charge him with all of them
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 03:31 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
Bullying is what conservative republicans do all the time...


They aren't alone. Take a look at going rapidly off the rails Joe Biden.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 06:41 pm
Crazy live Bernie event, watch fundraising, real time.
https://youtu.be/lRfrtfaVqWs
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 07:07 pm
Quote:
Panicky James Carville: It's the 'End of Days' If Democrats Nominate Bernie Sanders

I know someone that does not agree.
Quote:
James Carville is the craggy face of Democrat desperation. On today's Morning Joe, Carville spoke in literally apocalyptic terms, warning that the Democrat party is "the only thing between the United States and the abyss," and that if Democrats nominate Jeremy Corbyn [i.e., Bernie Sanders], it's going to be the "end of days."

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/mark-finkelstein/2020/02/10/panicky-james-carville-end-days-if-democrats-nominate-bernie?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 07:48 pm
@coldjoint,
Bernie’s victory will be the end of Carville’s Clinton days.

The corruption they created is over. I love to see it.

We’ve raised $40K since this rally started.

I’ve never seen a rally like this. Cornell and AOC were screaming.

This man is a once in a lifetime representative of the people.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Feb, 2020 07:52 pm
@Lash,

Quote:
The corruption they created is over.

If Bernie gets the nomination I will be genuinely surprised. I think Bloomberg is going to buy the nomination.
 

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