blatham
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:24 am
Quote:
Trump’s Show Trial
Fintan O’Toole
Even in a cynical pursuit of political advantage, the Republicans might have maintained the form of a real trial (scrutiny of verbal and written evidence) without its substance (a genuine weighing of guilt and innocence). They decided instead to have neither the form nor the substance. Because the Senate’s proceedings do not look much like a trial, its declaration of Trump’s innocence on both charges will not look much like a vindication. Whatever Chief Justice John Roberts would like to imagine, the Republicans are not even bothering to keep up appearances...
NYRB
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:31 am
@blatham,
The Democrats did not present a compelling case, and the court (in this case the Senate) summarily dismissed the charges.

It is a full vindication in every respect. Now it's time to vote out of office anyone in a conservative district who voted to impeach.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:41 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Projection and imagination appear to be your principal tools.
Not projection. Inference. The reason I link source material is so that anyone reading me can 1) verify material and 2) gain a proper sense of why I might argue or believe as I do. Thus mitigating or lessening the inferential work the reader has to do.
Quote:
In the matter at hand I cannot ever recall reading or hearing the word "rage"in describing Nancy Pelosi's recent actions or attitudes. My use of it arose exclusively out of my own impressions watching her in the last minutes of Trump's presentation before the House. Frankly it was very hard to miss.
I'll take you at your word re that first sentence. But I too watched that segment and your use of "rage" remains inaccurate. As hightor said above, "disgust" is the better term. But I doubt you'll find it so as "rage" denotes an internal state marked by emotionalism and irrationality which works better when speaking of those with a uterus.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:45 am
@hightor,
Make it simple and save on costs and blah-blah-blah: every state votes on the same day, using the same voting system.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:47 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
But I think they sound fun, and I wish that I could participate in them.

They're decidedly not "fun". (And "fun" shouldn't be among the various criteria used to establish a method of selecting a candidate.) They're inefficient, a waste of people's time. Lots of us don't care to tie up 3 - 4 hours in what is often a distasteful process. They can be coercive and they deny people a secret ballot. They work against the movement toward "open primaries" and restrict participation to the minority of party members who can attend the caucus.

Quote:
"It's time for us to grow up as Democrats and to be willing to look at our own house," Castro said about how voting is accomplished in the caucuses. "We have to complain and take action and file suit when Republicans trample on voting rights but we can't stop there. We actually have to improve how we do things as well or else there's a little bit of hypocrisy there."

Castro also described some of the voting restrictions enacted at the Iowa caucus.

"If you didn't know anything about the Iowa caucus," Castro said, "and I said to you, 'Okay, look. Here's how we're going to start this process. You can only vote on one day at 7:00 in the evening, there's no early voting, there's no secret ballot, so you can't have a secret ballot about how you're voting. You have to declare in front of everybody how you're voting. People would think that Republicans designed the Iowa caucus."

"I very much see this as in keeping with our push in the Democratic party for greater ballot access and voting rights that we change the way that we do our presidential nominating process," Castro added. "I don't believe that we should have these caucuses."

newsweek
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:49 am
@Olivier5,
How is candidate selection done in France?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:53 am
@hightor,
They sound fun to me. And I do think that fun should be part of the criteria for choosing a method of selecting a candidate.

As for coercion, I don't coerce very easily. That wouldn't be a problem for me.

If people don't want to take the time to participate in a caucus, that to me is a good reason for them to not be allowed to participate.

I don't think much of early voting either. If people want to vote they should show up when the polls are open.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 10:55 am
Quote:
If Republicans think Trump's Ukraine scandal is over, they're wrong

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) fielded reporters' questions yesterday afternoon, and was asked a question his party has struggled with for months: why should an American president be allowed to press foreign governments to target his domestic rivals?

The Republicans' Senate leader not only chose not to answer, he acted as if the question has been deemed irrelevant. "We've completed it, we've listened to the arguments, we voted, it's in the rearview mirror," McConnell replied.

Around the same time, Vice President Mike Pence -- who, incidentally, was 19 Senate votes from being elevated to the nation's highest office -- added, "It's over, America."

Pence didn't exactly specify what "it" referred to, but if he meant the entire ordeal -- Donald Trump's scandal, the scrutiny of his misconduct, the search for truths the White House and its allies fought to cover up -- has come and gone, the vice president and other Republicans are likely to be disappointed...
Benen

This is the obvious strategy Trump and Republicans will continue to use. It's what they did/are doing with Mueller's report (see georgeob above) - "It's over. There was nothing there. Time to get on with the nation's business".

That's just not going to work with reporters who will keep digging. It won't work with ongoing investigations by various agencies federal and state. It won't work for anyone who attends to politics carefully and who aren't trapped within the rightwing information cocoon. But it will work with those people. And it will likely have some effect on less involved citizens who are susceptible to the storms of bullshit and false information filling social media.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:06 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
They sound fun to me.

I just told you — they're not fun.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:08 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
. . . when speaking of those with a uterus.


Bingo! Give that man a ceegar.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:10 am
@Setanta,
I'm tempted to head right to Clinton and humidor options.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:13 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

[ I'll take you at your word re that first sentence. But I too watched that segment and your use of "rage" remains inaccurate. As hightor said above, "disgust" is the better term. But I doubt you'll find it so as "rage" denotes an internal state marked by emotionalism and irrationality which works better when speaking of those with a uterus.
You may be placing too much value on my word choice here. My intent was to convey intense anger of sufficient force to induce actions the person in question might not otherwise take, absent that emotion. "Rage is certainly suitable there, but don't make too much of it. Something besides mere composed disagreement appears to have colored Pelosi's actions at the SOU finale and, as well, her subsequent statements today regarding the President. She certainly appears to have been, and remained since then, rather pissed off.

blatham
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:17 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
She certainly appears to have been, and remained since then, rather pissed off.
Oh yes. She's far cooler than me.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:24 am
@hightor,
We have a two-round voting system for most elections. A large field of candidates compete in the first round, and the two highest scoring meet in the second round. A good way to look at it is to say that our first round of voting is equivalent to your primaries, while the second round is equivalent to your general.

This comparison is imperfect because our first round is official, mandated in the constitution and managed by the state, not left to the discretion of the parties. It's also possible in our system that 2 candidates from the left (or from the right) will come on top of the first round and face each other in the second round. Eg Chirac (gaullist, aka center-right) faced Le Pen (extreme right) in 2002 i think. But this rarely happens; generally the second round pits a leftist vs a rightist.

The two rounds are set two weeks apart. Votes are always on Sundays (not a work day).

No system is perfect, but ours is reasonnably quick, transparent and inexpensive. Compared to the US system, we're saved a gruelling primary season. The winner gets an absolute majority of the votes, by design, so you don't get a situation where one guy gets elected with only a plurality of votes.

Also the two rounds allow a diversity of parties to coexist, which is kinda nice. It can also lead to unstability and unclarity though, eg 5 parties currently constitute the left: the greens, the socialists, the communists, the insoumis, and the troskists...

All the election process is done on paper. You can see your name being crossed out on a physical register once you voted. Citizens are encouraged to help tabulate and check the result in the evening. I did it several times, it's a nice nation-building experience. Virtually all votes are reported that same night, with official complete tallies all ready the next day.

Most parties select their candidates via a central organ of some kind. The Socialist Party and the Republicans have tried the primary system à l'Américaine but it didn't work out for them. In fact it almost killed them.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 11:55 am
@Olivier5,
Such a system is used in a few places in the US. We call it a jungle primary.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 12:24 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
If Republicans think Trump's Ukraine scandal is over, they're wrong

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) fielded reporters' questions yesterday afternoon, and was asked a question his party has struggled with for months: why should an American president be allowed to press foreign governments to target his domestic rivals?

The Republicans' Senate leader not only chose not to answer, he acted as if the question has been deemed irrelevant. "We've completed it, we've listened to the arguments, we voted, it's in the rearview mirror," McConnell replied.


This is the obvious strategy Trump and Republicans will continue to use. It's what they did/are doing with Mueller's report (see georgeob above) - "It's over. There was nothing there. Time to get on with the nation's business".

That's just not going to work with reporters who will keep digging. It won't work with ongoing investigations by various agencies federal and state. It won't work for anyone who attends to politics carefully and who aren't trapped within the rightwing information cocoon. But it will work with those people. And it will likely have some effect on less involved citizens who are susceptible to the storms of bullshit and false information filling social media.


Do you believe the same strategy, in the hands of Democrats who wish to put aside the possibility of criminal prosecutions by the Justice Department on the parts of FBI and possibly intelligence agency officials involved in the two year long fruitless search for a Russian/Trump collusion conspiracy will work any better?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 12:33 pm
@oralloy,
It offers a robust system which avoids the two-party trap, allowing a fair amount of diverse PIVs to be tabled, while still generating a clear winner with a strong mandate, most of the times.

But no voting system is perfect. In fact, the most interesting part of our system is the public regulation and financing of campaign costs for all candidates who get more than 5% of the expressed votes in round 1. If you can advance the money, apply the rules, account professionally and truthfully for all costs, keep your total campaign cost under a certain cealing, and score 5% or more, then all campaign costs are refunded by the State. That's a recent development and I believe an excellent one.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 01:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Most parties select their candidates via a central organ of some kind. The Socialist Party and the Republicans have tried the primary system à l'Américaine but it didn't work out for them. In fact it almost killed them.
We don't elect our president (head of state) - she/he is elected in the Federal Convention, consisting of all Bundestag [2nd chamber] members, as well as an equal number of electors elected by the state legislatures in proportion to their respective populations.
We don't elect our Chancellor (head of Federal Government) either - she/he is elected by the members of the Bundestag.

The candidates for any political position are all elected by the party members of the various political parties.
We - the Scial Democrats - elected our leaders (a team of one female and one male) recently, in two rounds. Voting was done by paper (either by box or mail) or by email. Second round, however, only on paper.

All election voting is done either by mail or personally at the box, counting is done manually.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 01:47 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

The mainstream press is NOT ready for this election. They've learned a bit. They can use the word "liar" now, though the NYT hasn't really absorbed the lessons they should have learned.

If that wasn't clear before, this last week proved how poorly prepared they are. Even while the impeachment process was ongoing with all of the critical importance of it and what it revealed, the press jumped on the shallowest of news stories - the Idaho caucus.

I have no confidence the US is going to pull out of this slide towards a failed state turned profoundly authoritarian.


Your last sentence is a laughable bit of hyperbole. In the first place the only real danger we face from totalitarian authoritarianism comes from the new, emerging Loonie left wing of the Democrat Party. In the second, Republicans and Trump are the major forces defending individual rights to arrange our lives as we see fit and do so in the face of State and Federal governments which seek to control the schools our children attend, what they are taught there, how we choose our health care providers and many other areas of our liberty that are under near constant attack by self-appointed "Progressives" who are oddly sure that they (alone) know what's best for everyone else and seek to use the power of government to impose it on us all.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2020 01:54 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
DNC chair calls for a recanvass in Iowa as chaos ensues
By Dan Merica, Jeff Zeleny and Adam Levy, CNN 

Updated 1:55 PM EST, Thu February 06, 2020

(CNN)Democratic National Committee Chair Tom Perez called for a recanvass of all results in Iowa on Thursday, as the state's Democratic Party continues to struggle to verify the data from Monday night's caucuses.

The move is a significant step and raises further questions about how long the results of the key Iowa caucuses will remain outstanding. In a recanvass, all the numbers that were released by the state party would be checked against the results that were recorded at caucus sites.

"Enough is enough," Perez tweeted. "In light of the problems that have emerged in the implementation of the delegate selection plan and in order to assure public confidence in the results, I am calling on the Iowa Democratic Party to immediately begin a recanvass."

Perez followed up his initial tweet by writing, "A recanvass is a review of the worksheets from each caucus site to ensure accuracy. The (Iowa Democratic Party) will continue to report results."

Perez, in the tweet, is specifically raising questions about how the Iowa Democratic Party is adhering to the plan they submitted to the national party. That plan guided how the state party would allocate delegates.

Iowa Democratic Party Chair Troy Price released a statement responding to Perez, saying the party is prepared to conduct a recanvass "should any presidential campaign" request one.

"Should any presidential campaign in compliance with the Iowa Delegate Selection Plan request a recanvass, the IDP is prepared," he said. "In such a circumstance, the IDP will audit the paper records of report, as provided by the precinct chairs and signed by representatives of presidential campaigns. This is the official record of the Iowa Democratic caucus, and we are committed to ensuring the results accurately reflect the preference of Iowans."

CNN has reached out to the party for further clarity on its next steps.

Former South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanderswere locked in a close battle for first in Iowaon Thursday with 97% of precinct reporting. Buttigieg held a .1% lead over Sanders in state delegate , with former Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, former Vice President Joe Biden and Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar trailing behind.

In a news conference on Thursday after Perez's tweet, Sanders declared a strong victory, noting his lead in the popular vote, and called the delay in reporting results "a big screw-up." The Iowa Democratic Party released the popular vote totals for the first time this year, but CNN determines the winner of the Iowa caucuses by who leads in state delegates. State delegates are used to choose national delegates, which determines who wins the Democratic nomination.

Perez took the step of calling for a recanvass specifically because of issues around how the Iowa Democratic Party was allocating state delegate equivalents from satellite caucus sites, two sources with knowledge tell CNN.

One person familiar with Perez's decision said it was done to get ahead of calls for a recount from candidates, something the party worried would look divisive.



https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/06/politics/iowa-caucus-results/index.html
0 Replies
 
 

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