blatham
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 07:49 am
@Olivier5,
You are framing the issue as either/or. That's fallacious. Hightor's take is the better one. You might argue that "true" democracy (one person, one vote, along with the absence of inequalities of power/influence) is to be found nowhere and nowhen. True but unhelpful. The actual issue is degrees of the thing.

revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 08:02 am
The Closing Arguments of the 2020 Democrats

(Before the caucuses on Feb. 3.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 08:38 am
Quote:
This is about Republicans maintaining the ability to manipulate elections here at home. Trump, so desperate to win his election the first time, welcomed foreign interference along with the traditional domestic voter suppression his party offered. Pandora’s Box has been opened more widely than the president and the Republicans probably ever anticipated, and now they are willing to argue that Trump has the powers of an autocrat all so that they can maintain this ability to reach out to whomever they need to in order to win elections.

This is how reckless Republicans are with America, willing to give untold amounts of power to a man whom they still don’t fully understand in a frantic attempt to maintain their own grip on advantage in a country that has already elected a black president once and whose demographics are quickly turning against them...
RS
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 10:00 am
@blatham,
Quote:
The actual issue is degrees of the thing.

I agree, and I think a Sanders presidency will be democratic (i.e. will reflect the will of the people), to a significant degree more so than a Trump presidency, and I also believe to a greater degree than a Biden one.

Your take is unhelpful in that it peddles unsubstantiated fears of cutlass-between-the-teeth Bolshevism.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 12:47 pm
Bernie Sanders Can’t Win

Class loathing feels so good, but it is ultimately self-defeating.

Quote:
Watching “Succession,” the HBO show about the most despicable plutocrats to seize the public imagination since the Trumps were forced on us, made me want to tax the ultrarich into a homeless shelter. And it almost made a Bernie Bro of me.

That’s the thing about class loathing: it feels good, a moral high with its own endorphins, but is ultimately self-defeating. A Bernie Sanders rally is a hit from the same pipe: Screw those greedy billionaire bastards!

Sanders has passion going for him. He has authenticity. He certainly has consistency: His bumper-sticker sloganeering hasn’t changed for half a century. He was, “even as a young man, an old man,” as Time magazine said.

But he cannot beat Donald Trump, for the same reason people do not translate their hatred of the odious rich into pitchfork brigades against walled estates.

The United States has never been a socialist country, even when it most likely should have been one, during the robber baron tyranny of the Gilded Age or the desperation of the Great Depression, and it never will be. Which isn’t to say that American capitalism is working; it needs Teddy Roosevelt-style trustbusting and restructuring. We’re coming for you, Facebook.

The next month presents the last chance for serious scrutiny of Sanders, who is leading in both Iowa and New Hampshire. After that, Republicans will rip the bark off him. When they’re done, you will not recognize the aging, mouth-frothing, business-destroying commie from Ben and Jerry’s dystopian dairy. Demagogy is what Republicans do best. And Sanders is ripe for caricature.

I’m not worried about the Russian stuff — Bernie’s self-described “very strange honeymoon” to the totalitarian hell of the Soviet Union in 1988, and his kind words for similar regimes. Compared to a president who is a willing stooge for the Russian strongman Vladimir Putin, a little vodka-induced dancing with the red bear is peanuts.

Nor am I worried about the legitimate questions concerning the candidate’s wife, Jane Sanders, who ran a Vermont college into the ground. Again, Trump’s family of grifters — from Ivanka securing her patents from China while Daddy made other promises to Beijing, to Don Jr.’s using the White House to leverage the family brand — give Democrats more than enough ammunition to return the fire.

Trump bragged about sexual assault, paid off a porn star and ran a fraudulent university. He sucks up to dictators, and tells a half-dozen lies before he puts his socks on in the morning. A weird column about a rape fantasy from 1972 is not going to sink Bernie when Trump has debased all public discourse.

No, what will get the Trump demagogue factory working at full throttle is the central message of the Sanders campaign: that the United States needs a political revolution. It may very well need one. But most people don’t think so, as Barack Obama has argued. And getting two million new progressive votes in the usual area codes is not going to change that.

Give Sanders credit for moving public opinion along on a living wage, higher taxes on the rich and the need for immediate action to stem the immolation of the planet. Most great ideas start on the fringe and move to the middle.

But some of his other ideas are stillborn, or never get beyond the fringe. Socialism, despite its flavor-of-the-month appeal to young people, is not popular with the general public. Just 39 percent of Americans view socialism positively, a bare uptick from 2010, compared to 87 percent who have a positive view of free enterprise, Gallup found last fall.

What’s more, American confidence in the economy is now at the highest level in nearly two decades. That’s hardly the best condition for overthrowing the system.

Medicare for all, once people understand that it involves eliminating all private insurance, polls at barely above 40 percent in some surveys, versus the 70 percent who favor the option of Medicare for all who want it. Other polls show majority support. But cost is a huge concern. And even Sanders cannot give a price tag for nationalizing more than one-sixth of the economy.

A ban on fracking is a poison pill in a must-win state like Pennsylvania, which Democrats lost by just over 44,000 votes in 2016. Eliminating Immigration and Customs Enforcement, another Sanders plan, is hugely unpopular with the general public.

Sanders is a rigid man, and he projects grumpy old man rigidity, with his policy prescriptions frozen in failed Marxist pipe dreams. He’s unlikely to change. I sort of like that about his character, in the same way I like that he didn’t cave to the politically correct bullies who went after him for accepting the support of the influential podcaster Joe Rogan.

Democrats win with broad-vision optimists who still shake up the system — Franklin Roosevelt, of course, but also Obama. The D’s flipped 40 House seats in 2018 without using any of Sanders stringent medicine. If they stick to that elixir they’ll oust Trump, the goal of a majority of Americans.

Democrats lose with fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists. Three times, the party nominated William Jennings Bryan, the quirky progressive with great oratorical pipes, and three times they were trounced. Look him up, kids. Your grandchildren will do a similar search for Bernie Sanders when they wonder how Donald Trump won a second term.

nyt/egan
Sturgis
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 01:57 pm
@hightor,
There were those who said Truman couldn't win. People who said Carter would lose against Ford. Not to mention the pundits, opinionators and voters who kept saying Trump would never win.

Sanders has as much a chance as anybody.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 02:34 pm
@Sturgis,
Neither Truman nor Carter were Socialists.
I believe the likelihood of a Sanders win in the Presidential election is extremely low, virtually negligible. He has never held a job outside government, and or a couple of decades now he's been the Senate's crazy in house socialist, who merely caucused with the Democrats.

Sanders was merely Hillary's convenient choice as a pro forma opponent in the 2016 Primary. To her surprise his authenticity and likeableness (relative to her own) quickly generated a committed following among an enthusiastic ~ 25% of Democrat voters. All the rest, including the recent election of several far left members of the Democrat Congressional Delegation, followed that unexpected event. As a direct result the Democrat Establishment , in a desperate effort to gain or hold on to power, created the now failing Biden candidacy. Now, as Biden continues to stumble and reveal the reality of his ineptitude and venality, other "savior candidates" are emerging , currently Bloomberg is the rising alternative.

Interesting comedy, but a suitable accompaniment to the now three year campaign to Impeach Trump.
Sturgis
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 02:42 pm
@georgeob1,
Yeah well keep in mind that Ronald Reagan would not be considered a Republican these days. (Neither would Goldwater)

Things change.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 02:52 pm
@Sturgis,
Really???

Like Reagan Trump has brought much greater unity to the Republican party than immediately preceded his election, and in many ways he is a more vulgar and less well-spoken version of Reagan in terms of the policies he advocates.
Sturgis
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 02:56 pm
@georgeob1,
Many of the ideas Reagan had are not up to the new levels of conservatism which many Republicans espouse.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 02:59 pm
@Sturgis,

Quote:
There were those who said Truman couldn't win. People who said Carter would lose against Ford.

Well that's true. But Egan (hardly my favorite NYT columnist) raises some valid points. And there are considerable differences between the electorate of '48 and '76 and the political situation today, the distribution of electoral votes in particular. Nominating an outsider and then consoling ourselves with examples from the past with very different candidates isn't a good plan for winning an election.
Quote:
Sanders has as much a chance as anybody.

Not if consumer confidence remains high.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 03:02 pm
@Sturgis,
Probably true. I believe this is merely a reflection of the increased polarization we are seeing in most aspects of American Politics. It affects both sides.

From the Republican perspective, many longstanding conservative values and traditional American individual freedoms are under increased attack by self-styled "Progressives" who appear to believe that they alone know what's best for everyone else, and that it necessarily involves the surrender of individual freedoms, prerogatives and choice to government bureaucracies. This has created an urgent need to advocate for individual freedoms in areas that were previously taken for granted by most Americans.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 03:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
cutlass-between-the-teeth Bolshevism.

Those are my people.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 03:27 pm
@blatham,
Quote:
Those are my people.

Would any of them like to identify themselves? Screen names will do. Who here is one of Blatham's people? Just curious.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 03:39 pm
Quote:
“We’re not arguing over what Trump did. We’re arguing over whether Republicans want to know what Trump did. Sometimes this whole saga feels like a thought experiment where we keep layering on more and more extreme conditions to see how broken the Republican Party really is.”

That's Ezra Klein and I know what he means. I don't know how far down this goes. Come November, if Trump loses, his response could very easily be a rabble-rousing push to remain in office. Many lies will be trumpeted from the WH. Fox will give support and cover. His followers will climb on board and may very well bring guns and/or threats or acts of violence. And all of this begins to look certain if Trump has far more crimes which are likely or certain to come to light when he is out of office with the real potential for jail time as a consequence. How corrupt could this man get? How little can we count on Republicans to attenuate their descent into an American version of North Korea's cult worship and their deepening affection for the crudest sorts of propagandist appeals?

The period between now and November is going to be truly ugly. It is nearly unbearable now but it's going to get much worse. And after november, god help us.
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 03:55 pm
@blatham,
Quote:
His followers will climb on board and may very well bring guns and/or threats or acts of violence.

You mean like Anti-Fa is doing now and will continue to do if Trump is re-elected? The predictions for riots in Virginia was bullshit. Your statement here is bullshit. Trump supporters are law abiding and peaceful.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 03:56 pm
Quote:
Jake Tapper
@jaketapper
Rubio: "Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office."

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 04:00 pm
Quote:
Dan Bongino
@dbongino
Pierre Delecto strikes again. Benedict Romney is an embarrassment to the GOP. He’s not even a RINO as even RINOs are ashamed of Romney. I can’t believe I voted for this joker once.

After a month or two of incarceration, torture and re-education, Romney will confess to his traitorous sins against the great Stalin and then walk the path of justice to the firing squad.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 04:04 pm
@blatham,
Quote:
Romney will

remain irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 04:05 pm
Quote:
Michael S. Schmidt
@nytmike
EXCLUSIVE: Bolton book contains new, earlier, allegation of Trump's involvement in pressure campaign. Trump asked Bolton to call Zelensky to ensure he would meet w/Giuliani. Cipollone and Mulvaney were in room. w/@maggieNYT https://nytimes.com/2020/01/31/us/politics/trump-bolton-ukraine.html


The same Cipollone who headed up the Trump's legal team, of course. I don't think we knew before that he was present.
 

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