Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 12:30 pm
@georgeob1,
Any government controls behavior, one way or another. Otherwise what power does it have?

Controlling the behaviors called rape, murder and theft may not be such a bad idea, by the way...
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 12:41 pm
Interesting article on anti-modernism in this review of some of the work of Wendell Berry:

Quote:
Our culture’s great need today is for a pious paganism, a virtuous rationalism, skeptical and science-loving but skeptical even of science when necessary, aware that barbarism is as likely as progress and may even arrive advertised as progress, steadily angry at the money-changers and mindful of the least of our brethren. I don’t see how anyone who shares Berry’s Christian beliefs could fail to adopt his ideal of stewardship. But if those religious beliefs are necessary as well as sufficient—if there is no other path to that ideal, as he sometimes seems to imply—then we may be lost. One cannot believe at will.

baffler
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 01:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Any government controls behavior, one way or another. Otherwise what power does it have?

Controlling the behaviors called rape, murder and theft may not be such a bad idea, by the way...


I agree but most countries (including mine) strictly limit the domain of government controlled limitations to matters involving crime and the regulation of some financial, employment and industrial activities and their like. Many countries (including mine) also have broadly defined individual rights that explicitly cannot be limited by government.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 01:22 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
The reality is that Sanders hasn't been very effective in his long years in office. He gets lots of credit for bringing the Democratic Party left and it needed some of that, but many times the revolutionaries make poor leaders.

I don't agree that the Democratic Party needed to be dragged to the left. The American people are not interested in all of this leftist malarkey. The Democrats can only win elections by being reasonable centrists.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 01:37 pm
@hightor,
We may be lost indeed. I didn't mean to say that progress was constant and automatic, by the way. But I believe it is occasionally possible.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 02:03 pm
@revelette3,
His statement didn’t include disrespecting the writer.

I prefer it strongly to putting them up to it and paying people to write other, distracting stories.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 02:10 pm
@blatham,
He definitely uses his time on ‘the stage’ to model an influence that stands perfectly opposite that of Trump.

It matters.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 03:17 pm
Truthdig


BERNIE SANDERS IS MUCH MORE THAN A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/bernie-sanders-is-much-more-than-a-presidential-candidate/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

The whole thing:

To corporate media, Bernie Sanders is incorrigible. He won’t stop defying the standard assumptions about what’s possible in national politics. His 2020 campaign — with feet on the ground and eyes on visionary horizons — is a danger to corporate capitalism’s “natural” order that enables wealth to dominate the political process.

When the New York Times published its dual endorsement of Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren on Sunday night, the newspaper patted Sanders on the head before disparaging him. “He boasts that compromise is anathema to him,” the editorial complained. “Only his prescriptions can be the right ones, even though most are overly rigid, untested and divisive.”

Such complaints have been common for centuries, hurled at all the great movements for human rights — and their leaders. The basic concept of abolishing slavery was “rigid, untested and divisive.” When one of the leading abolitionists, William Lloyd Garrison, was cautioned to cool it because he seemed on fire, Garrison replied: “I have need to be all on fire, for there are mountains of ice around me to melt.”

Bernie Sanders has ample reasons to be all on fire, and so do the social movements that are propelling his campaign for president. They refuse to accept the go-slow advice from the liberal establishment about fighting against systemic cruelties and disasters — healthcare injustice, vast economic inequality, mass incarceration, institutional racism, the climate emergency, perpetual war and so much more.

The Bernie 2020 campaign is a crucible of broader activism from the grassroots that can spark uprisings of heat and light. To the extent that passivity and fatalism melt away, possibilities for gaining power become more tangible.

Martin Luther King Jr. readily acknowledged that “power without love is reckless and abusive” — but he emphasized that “love without power is sentimental and anemic.” So, where does that leave us in relation to seeking power?

“Power, properly understood, is the ability to achieve purpose,” Dr. King wrote. “It is the strength required to bring about social, political or economic changes. In this sense power is not only desirable but necessary in order to implement the demands of love and justice.”

That’s what the Bernie 2020 campaign is about — the necessity of gaining power “in order to implement the demands of love and justice.” And that helps to explain why the campaign is so profoundly compelling at the grassroots. It is oriented to meshing electoral work with social movements — however difficult that might be at times — to generate political power from the ground up. And that’s where genuine progressive change really comes from.

“The parties and candidates are not the agents of change,” a former chair of the California Democratic Party’s Progressive Caucus, Karen Bernal, said a few days ago at a pro-Sanders forum in San Rafael. “It’s the other way around. They respond to the outside forces of movements.”

Bernal was elected as co-chair of California’s Sanders delegation to the 2016 Democratic National Convention, and she is strongly supporting the Bernie 2020 campaign. While remaining intensely engaged with elections, Bernal keeps her eyes on the prize. “We don’t want to turn this into a cult of personalities,” she said. “It’s about the movement.”

Much of the energy behind the Sanders campaign is generated by what corporate media outlets often criticize or mock — Bernie’s consistency as he keeps denouncing massive income inequality and corporate power. In the process, he confronts head-on the system that enables huge profiteering by such enterprises as the healthcare industry, fossil-fuel companies, private prisons and the military-industrial complex.

By remaining part of social movements, Bernie has made himself especially antithetical to the elite sensibilities of corporate media. Elites rarely appreciate any movement that is challenging their unjust power.

The electoral strength of the Bernie Sanders campaign is enmeshed with intensities of feeling and resolve for progressive change that pollsters and editorial writers are ill-equipped to measure or comprehend. The potential has sometimes been called “the power of the people.” Whatever you call it, such power is usually subjugated. But when it breaks free, there’s no telling what might happen.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 03:27 pm
@georgeob1,
So the question becomes: which state interventions work, and under what circumstances they do so.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  5  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 03:53 pm
Justice Democrats, a progressive political action committee, on Tuesday urged Hillary Clinton to back whichever candidate becomes the party nominee after the former secretary of State refused to commit to backing her 2016 primary opponent Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). 

"In our collective fight against Donald Trump, we all have to be ready to support whoever the eventual Democratic nominee for president is. Defeating Trump is far more important than settling old scores," Justice Democrats executive director Alexandra Rojas said in a statement. 

Rojas called Clinton's comments "unacceptable, out-of-touch, and dangerous." 

"We're calling on her to do the right thing and immediately say that she'll do everything she can to support whoever becomes the Democratic nominee," Rojas added. 

"It's fine to criticize a candidate or nominee - as we surely will - but we must keep our eyes on the prize."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/479190-justice-democrats-call-on-clinton-to-support-party-nominee-after-sanders
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 04:01 pm
Quote:
French Intellectual Sentenced to 2 Months in Prison For Calling Mass Immigration an “Invasion”

Progress in France?
Quote:
Forced to pay 1800 euros to anti-racism organizations for his crime of opinion.

Shouldn't you be concerned about jailing people for speech?
https://summit.news/2020/01/21/french-intellectual-sentenced-to-2-months-in-prison-for-calling-mass-immigration-an-invasion/
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 05:03 pm
Bernie needs to stop capitulating to the establishment by apologizing to a creepy pedophile who is corrupt, for example.

We don't need another corrupt president, we already have one.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 05:06 pm
@Olivier5,
So glad to hear someone has the balls to call Clinton out.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 05:17 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Still a very sloppy stance. She should say: I will support any nominee, as we all said here at some point or another. (?)


Agreed. Glad finally. Also with your last post. I knew when I read the headline this morning it was going to be a negative thing. Everything she said was stupid.

Hoping no one saw it, no such luck.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 06:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
No straw man at all.
You said...
Quote:
I reject "progressive" initiatives based on the presumption that the political processes of governance can simultaneously reform the human character and still ensure individual freedom.

I then asked you if the Church or Jesus or education or parenting (or anything) could reform human character. You need to answer that carefully first. What do you mean by "human character"? Is it different from "human nature"?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 06:41 pm
@revelette3,
She came back to the scene of the crime about 30 minutes ago, tried to make a joke about it, and walk it back.

Didn’t go over very well.😇
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 07:11 pm
Quote:
Tonight Clinton responded on Twitter, remarking, “I thought everyone wanted my authentic, unvarnished views!”

She went on to say, “The number one priority for our country and world is retiring Trump, and, as I always have, I will do whatever I can to support our nominee.”
DB
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 08:52 pm
@blatham,
Unlike Lash and the Bernieites Clinton has her eye on the ball. Retiring Trump. Unlike the Bernieites she has said she will support whom ever the democratic candidate is. If she had got that kind of support from the Bernieites we would have a liberal supreme court and a female democratic president. So don't pay any attention to the conservative republican plants.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 09:13 pm
@RABEL222,
January 21, 2020

"If he gets the nomination, will you endorse and campaign for him?"

"I'm not going to go there yet. We're still in a very vigorous primary season. I will say, however, that it's not only him, it's the culture around him. It's his leadership team. It's his prominent supporters. It's his online Bernie Bros and their relentless attacks on lots of his competitors, particularly the women. And I really hope people are paying attention to that because it should be worrisome that he has permitted this culture -- not only permitted, [he] seems to really be very much supporting it. And I don't think we want to go down that road again where you campaign by insult and attack and maybe you try to get some distance from it, but you either don't know what your campaign and supporters are doing or you're just giving them a wink and you want them to go after Kamala [Harris] or after Elizabeth [Warren]. I think that that's a pattern that people should take into account when they make their decisions."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/hillary-clinton-full-a-fiery-new-documentary-trump-regrets-harsh-words-bernie-1271551
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2020 10:29 pm
@blatham,
And, nobody is stupid enough to believe her
 

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