oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 05:20 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
The problem is determining who is a trumpie among the ones claiming to be a democrat.

I've been a registered Democrat all of my life, and I'm proud to be a Trump supporter.

Mr. Trump protects America from progressives.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 05:21 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
The special counsel found that Russia did interfere with the election, but "did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts, despite multiple efforts from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."

http://patcrosscartoons.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/645e4c95-8c7b-4ffa-97a2-c49aa800c088.jpeg
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 05:22 am
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
You don't have much of a grasp on reality, do you?

I notice your failure to point out anything that McGentrix is wrong about.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 09:57 am
@hightor,
McG knows all this, if this Russian stuff was mixed up with Hillary Clinton and she won, the stink the republicans would have made would make anything we democrats have done and said like child play in comparison.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 10:02 am
@oralloy,
So are my in-laws who never voted for a democrat in any final general election in their lives. Except when it came to my father in laws seat as chair man on the school board. I can still remember spray painting those signs back in the day when that was how it done. In fact, my grandmother on my dad's side even brought up how they are staunch republicans and demanded to know why I was "going with" my boyfriend. I was only 13, I was so unaware I had no idea what she was talking about.

My point is a lot old timers are democrat in name only just so they can muck up the primaries. Also, had a lot to do with union mines.
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 10:28 am
@hightor,
NPR:
Quote:
Special counsel Robert Mueller did not find evidence that President Trump's campaign conspired with Russia to influence the 2016 election, according to a summary of findings submitted to Congress by Attorney General William Barr.

"The Special Counsel's investigation did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election," Barr wrote in a letter to leaders of the House and Senate judiciary committees on Sunday afternoon.

That was despite "multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign," he wrote.


American Bar Association:
Quote:
The special counsel found that Russia did interfere with the election, but “did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts, despite multiple efforts from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign.”


Time:
Quote:
Mueller was unable to establish a conspiracy between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians involved in this activity,


AP Fact Check:
Quote:
The Mueller report said the investigation did not find a criminal conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia, saying it had not collected sufficient evidence “to establish” or sustain criminal charges.


NBCNews:
Quote:
Special counsel Robert Mueller found no proof that President Donald Trump criminally colluded with Russia and reached no conclusion about whether Trump obstructed justice, Attorney General William Barr told Congress on Sunday, while also announcing that he found insufficient evidence to pursue the matter further.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 10:45 am
@McGentrix,
I understand that. I accept the findings of the Mueller report. But here's what I'm asking you:

Quote:
Why did they continue to have contact and even meet with Russian-affiliated individuals? Why didn't they refuse to take their calls and immediately report the attempted contacts to the FBI? Why did they try to hide this from the citizens of the USA?


It may not have been an indictable conspiracy but it still stinks of collusion.
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 10:54 am
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Special counsel Robert Mueller’s 448-page report is a copiously detailed chronicle of shady conduct from Donald Trump and his associates, from the campaign through to the White House.

Mueller makes clear that his investigation did not establish that there was a conspiracy between Trump associates and the Russian government to interfere with the election. And the special counsel doesn’t say one way or the other whether he thinks President Trump criminally obstructed justice while in office — though he makes clear he thinks the evidence of that is quite concerning.

“If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state,” Mueller writes. “We are unable to reach such a judgment.”

The report makes several things clear: that the Russian government tried to help Trump win, that the Trump campaign was eager to benefit from hackings targeting Democrats, that Trump’s campaign advisers had a host of ties to Russia, and that President Trump tried again and again to try to impede the Russia investigation.

For instance, Mueller writes that Trump “repeatedly” asked people associated with his campaign to “find” tens of thousands of emails Hillary Clinton had deleted, and that campaign adviser Michael Flynn embarked on an (unsuccessful) effort to do so. The special counsel also describes how Trump’s campaign manager Paul Manafort gave a Russian associate internal polling data and stressed a focus on Midwestern states. And the report’s volume on obstruction of justice lays out facts about Trump’s behavior on 11 different episodes, from FBI Director James Comey’s firing to his efforts to intimidate one-time Trump lawyer Michael Cohen.

Several loose ends remain. A good deal of material in the report is redacted — including, it seems, information about just what exactly happened regarding Roger Stone’s efforts to get information about hacked emails from WikiLeaks. Furthermore, an appendix to the report also lays out 14 redacted matters that are still being investigated (two that Mueller was handling, and 12 that he referred elsewhere).

But Trump’s criminal jeopardy from the Mueller probe itself is over. And some Democrats are throwing cold water on any impeachment push based on Mueller’s findings — “based on what we have seen to date, going forward on impeachment is not worthwhile at this point,” House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer told CNN Thursday.

Mueller’s Russian interference findings and his decision not to charge Trump associates with conspiracy, explained

The first volume of Mueller’s report focuses on the Russian effort to interfere with the 2016 presidential election, and whether any Trump associates were involved in that effort. This is popularly referred to as “collusion,” but Mueller writes that collusion is not a criminal term and he instead relied on conspiracy law. The volume begins by describing the two major Russian government efforts to interfere with the election.

First, there was the social media propaganda operation — the “troll farm,” in which Russia’s Internet Research Agency (funded by an oligarch known as “Putin’s chef”) created fake online accounts that “favored candidate Trump and disparaged candidate Clinton,” according to Mueller. The special counsel writes that his investigation has “not identified evidence that any Trump Campaign official” was knowingly involved in their efforts (Mueller indicted several Russian nationals and Russia-affiliated people and organizations in February 2018).

Second, there was what Mueller calls the “Russian hacking and dumping operations.” Russian intelligence officers hacked into the accounts of Clinton campaign and Democratic Party organizations. Some of that material was then posted online by the Russians themselves, while other material was eventually posted by WikiLeaks.

Mueller does not suggest any involvement from Trump officials in the hacking itself — but his findings about the leaks aren’t so clear. A section titled “Trump Campaign and the Dissemination of Hacked Materials” is heavily redacted, and appears to include information about Trump associates’ discussions about WikiLeaks. (Some of this redacted material likely relates to Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone, who faces an upcoming trial.)
(on source)

This section also describes how, according to Michael Flynn, Trump repeatedly asked his campaign advisers to find Hillary Clinton’s deleted emails. (This referred to tens of thousands of emails Clinton deleted rather than hand over to the government, with the justification that they were personal rather than work-related.) Flynn in fact tried to “find” those emails, contacting an elderly Republican donor who tried to obtain them on the “dark web.” He did not succeed.
(on source)

Beyond probing whether Trump associates were involved in those two main Russian interference operations, Mueller also investigated “links and contacts” between Trump associates and people with ties to Russia’s government.

Per Mueller, the idea was to look into “whether those contacts constituted a third avenue” of Russian influence, and into whether there was a conspiracy involving “Russia providing assistance to the campaign” in exchange for future “favorable treatment.”

This section of the report is more than 100 pages long and explores these, among other, topics:

Michael Cohen’s efforts to advance a project to build a Trump Tower in Moscow, and outreach to Russian government officials about it

George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, getting a tip that Russia had “dirt” on Clinton. The tip came from a professor with ties to the Russian government.

Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting with a Russian lawyer at Trump Tower in New York, to try and get dirt on Hillary Clinton

Former Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak’s contacts with Trump advisers — including Jeff Sessions, Jared Kushner, and Michael Flynn

Paul Manafort’s longtime Russia and Ukrainian connections, and his contacts with a Russian associate during the campaign, to whom he provided Trump campaign polling data and talked Midwestern battleground states

Trump associate Erik Prince’s secret meeting in Seychelles with a Russian financier after the election

In the end, though, Mueller concluded that none of these contacts added up to “an agreement to commit any substantive violation of federal criminal law.”

The special counsel also looked into whether Donald Jr.’s meeting the Russian lawyer violated campaign finance law, under the theory that it involved a request for a “thing of value” from a foreigner who’s not permitted to donate to a US political campaign. But Mueller concluded that the evidence he had, particularly regarding the parties’ intent to violate the law, wasn’t sufficient for a likely criminal conviction.

An important caveat Mueller makes is that when he writes that his investigation “did not establish particular facts,” that “does not mean that there was no evidence of those facts.” But in the end, his 22-month investigation spent a great deal of time and resources probing these matters — and despite all of the shady information they turned up, they didn’t end up clearly documenting a Trump-Russia election interference conspiracy.
Mueller’s obstruction of justice findings, explained

The second volume of Mueller’s report is a detailed investigation of events that potentially implicate President Trump in obstruction of justice.

The special counsel writes that he “determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment” on whether Trump committed criminal obstruction of justice. The main reason he did so was because the Justice Department has held that a sitting president can’t be indicted. “We determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes,” he writes.

Oddly, though, Mueller also goes out of his way to point out that he does not have “confidence” that Trump did not obstruct justice — and claims that, if Trump indeed “clearly did not commit obstruction of justice,” he would say so. The implication is that the evidence against Trump on obstruction shouldn’t be dismissed lightly (even though Attorney General Bill Barr did end dismissing it rather lightly).

The key obstruction-related events Mueller collected facts and evidence on are:

1. Trump insisted that he doubted that Russia was behind the hacking of Democrats’ emails, and denied having any business in Russia even though his company was trying to build a skyscraper in Moscow.

2. Trump tried to get FBI Director James Comey to drop an investigation into Michael Flynn (but Comey didn’t do it).

3. Trump tried several times to get Attorney General Jeff Sessions to reverse his recusal from oversight of the Russia investigation or to rein in the probe.

4.Trump fired Comey.

5.Trump directed McGahn to have Mueller himself fired (but McGahn didn’t carry this out).

6.Trump tried to prevent the disclosure of emails revealing Donald Jr.’s meeting at Trump Tower with a Russian lawyer.

7.Trump and his legal team urged key figures in the probe (like Paul Manafort) not to “flip” and attacked those who did flip (like Michael Cohen).

Much of this seems to be clearly aimed at trying to impede the Russia investigation. And some of the details here are very juicy indeed. For instance, an administration official’s notes describe Trump’s reaction upon learning of Mueller’s appointment: “Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I’m fucked.” After that, Trump spoke to his advisers about “knocking out Mueller” and tried — unsuccessfully — to have Jeff Sessions rein in the Russia investigation.

We also learned that, when Flynn moved toward cooperating with the government, Trump’s lawyer told Flynn’s attorney that he interpreted this as an expression of hostility toward the president and that he planned to make Trump aware of it. And that after Paul Manafort and Rick Gates were indicted, Manafort told Gates that it would be stupid to strike a plea deal, since Trump’s lawyer had made clear they’d “be taken care of.”

Mueller writes that the evidence doesn’t establish that all this “was designed to cover up a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia” — but that Trump could well have had other corrupt motives. For instance, regarding Trump’s firing of Comey, Mueller writes:

“The president had a motive to put the FBI’s Russia investigation behind him... a thorough FBI investigation would uncover facts about the campaign and the President personally that the President could have understood to be crimes or that would give rise to personal and political concerns.”

For many of these potentially obstructive incidents, Mueller includes some analysis of what the evidence shows about the three requirements for whether something can be considered criminal obstruction of justice — whether it involves an obstructive act, whether it has a connection to a pending proceeding, and what Trump’s intent was.

But, throughout, Mueller avoids coming to a conclusion on whether any of these individual acts — or the combination of them — qualify as criminal obstruction of justice. He does, however, occasionally to allude that another federal government body can address the matter: “We concluded that Congress has authority to prohibit a President’s corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice.”

And toward the end of the document, the special counsel writes: “The protection of the criminal justice system from corrupt acts by any person — including the President — accords with the fundamental principle of our government that ‘[n]o [person] in this country is so high that he is above the law.’”


https://www.vox.com/2019/4/18/18485602/mueller-report-findings-obstruction-russia-collusion

In my opinion, Mueller expected congress to take up impeachment in the matter of the Obstruction of Justice charge and whether Trump abused his office because intent was hard to prove in a criminal matter. Congress wouldn't need to prove a criminal act. Democrats wimped out thinking the matter too complex and comprehensive and hard to explain to voters in a simple clear cut manner.

However, it wasn't long Trump gave them something simple and clear cut and easily explainable on a silver platter he was so emboldened by the results of the Mueller report.

That you and your cohorts reject all these facts is not surprising, we might have done the same if it was Hillary, but I hope we wouldn't.
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 11:44 am
@revelette3,
I used to make a point of voting for pro-gun Democrats in the general election (even against a Republican who was better-yet on gun rights) because I wanted to have as many pro-gun Democrats in power as possible.

I only switched to voting for Republicans no-matter-what in the general election when the Democrats and Barack Obama conspired to disenfranchise me (along with the entire state of Michigan) in the 2008 presidential primaries.

My being in the Democratic Party has nothing to do with trying to muck up the primaries. The reason why I'm a Democrat is because I like the idea of strong safety/environmental regulations, as well as robust social programs paid for with taxes on the very rich.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 11:44 am
@Sturgis,
Quote:
I indicated "BALANCED,

OK, show us some balanced sources.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 11:51 am
@oralloy,
Fair enough if a little twisted on gun control imo. No offense, people are entitled to their own views.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 12:46 pm
Michael Tracey

Verified account

@mtracey
60m60 minutes ago
More
1. Weeks ago, Warren telegraphs pivot to running as "first woman president"
2. Delivers anonymous story to CNN accusing Bernie of sexism
3. Personally confirms story
4. Comes to debate prepared with "women win elections" stats
5. Signs off debate with "first woman president"
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 01:38 pm
@Brand X,
Miller report said if they could have cleared Trump and the republicans they would have so stated. They did not so state. If that isent an unstated accusation I don't know what would be. Republicans have their head in the sand hoping the majority of voters do the same.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 04:32 pm
@hightor,
Because they knew they would be winning the election and would need to be able to talk with people from Russia if we are to have diplomatic talks and relationships with them?
Because they were all fans of Liverpool and did nothing but discuss their team?
Because they had to because Trump wanted to punish them for smoking indoors?

Meeting people is what they do.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 04:33 pm
@revelette3,
Heh, Vox... I won't read from that slanted piece of **** "news" organization.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 04:50 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I understand that. I accept the findings of the Mueller report. But here's what I'm asking you:
Quote:
Why did they continue to have contact and even meet with Russian-affiliated individuals? Why didn't they refuse to take their calls and immediately report the attempted contacts to the FBI? Why did they try to hide this from the citizens of the USA?

It may not have been an indictable conspiracy but it still stinks of collusion.


I'm not really paying much attention to all this anti-Trump nonsense that is in the news every day, but as I recall, these Trump officials reported the Russian contacts to the CIA right when the contacts happened, and the Democrats then had their deep state operatives conceal the fact that the contacts had been reported to the CIA.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 06:07 pm
@revelette3,
Yes, she is an opportunist. She says she’s a Native American to get a job when those designations are made for people who’ve suffered discrimination due to their ethnic status—like people who live on the res.

She lied and checked a box that didn’t apply to her, took it from a legit minority who could’ve had that job, gave her hiring institution a fake out from having to hire a legitimate minority—and to add insult to injury—when legitimate decent people came to the aid either physically or in voice to support native Americans who fought against #NoDAPL, she—Miss Native American—was notoriously quiet.

This is only one example of her lies.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 06:10 pm
Quote:
It invites hypocrisy and selective enforcement. It represents a determination to repeat the mistakes of the past with the assumption that we are somehow more enlightened than our predecessors. It is, in short, the essence of modern progressivism.

Interesting article and not from the NYT.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/the-temperance-movement-reborn/
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 06:10 pm
@revelette3,
I’ve canvassed. Have you? You don’t know what you’re talking about, as usual.

What was the horror if that canvassers’ memo??
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jan, 2020 06:11 pm
@engineer,
Who sent the memo?
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 04/25/2024 at 08:04:15