Progressives (Liberals)

calling it something else doesnt
t make it any less murder.

Wrong. Soldiers killing each other on the battlefield is not murder.

I agree. My opinion has changed.

I used to believe my country’s reasons for most of our wars, and in those instances, in what I consider a justified war of self defense, I wouldn’t consider deaths in a war to be murder. However, I don’t believe our wars are necessary or justified. In fact, I consider them robbery and aggression. They have begun to look like innocent people ‘serving their country’ because they have so few job prospects — consigned to risk their lives doing the dirty work of a massive behemoth, taking over the world. It looks like murder for hire toward world domination.

We are destroying the Middle East, spending trillions of our dollars while we can’t get healthcare or other vital needs met. I feel like I’m living on a plantation. We all serve the war machine, but so many people are held down by cruel policies that keep us subservient to the power.

I’m ready to have a president who will press for peace and help my nation be a good, responsible global neighbor.

It's not murder when soldiers kill each other on the battlefield.



We have every right to defend and protect ourselves.



Self defense is neither robbery nor aggression.



The only people who are trying to take over the world are the bad guys that our military protects us from.



How are we the ones who are destroying the Middle East?



No one is keeping us subservient to anything.



Our presidents have always done that.

Since it's bragging and name-dropping time, I've been to the New York Yatch Club once, as a guest. It was quite nice; we danced a lot of valses and stuff, and the wine was good. It was a private party so I didn't interact with the upper-crusty regulars. Ama good?

Come on, give him a break. But how was it at the dance club, sounds more exciting and fun than hobnobbing in the woods with a bunch of high powered men doing lord knows what. I wonder if George could fill us in, what do they do, what do they do for entertainment while discussing world or political or whatever events?

Trump is such a perfect subject in the context of the term "elite".

Let's refer back to george. George does not consider himself to be properly included as a member of such a thing, by comparison to others. I've been arguing that is true and also not true but I wouldn't claim that george is insincere in this.

Now, take Trump's "When you're a celebrity, you can do anything, even grab them by the pussy". That's just one of his many brags to demonstrate he IS an example of the elite. What is Mar a Lago other than a physical testimony to his eliteness. His buildings with TRUMP emblazoned in gold aren't different from the big brag of a Pharaoh's tomb. I'm extraordinarily special. I'm at the top of it all. I'm Caesar and Kim Kardashian at the same time, I'm so on top.

And yet Trump is, at the same time, running this con that he's a voice of the commoner - a servant of the commoner - being attacked by ... "the elites" (which are any who challenge or criticize his perfectness and domination.

That any human mind buys this ridiculous version of reality is not encouraging.

It was a long time ago, I don't remember much, apart from drinking a bit too much and thanking my mother in petto for teaching me the waltz steps as a kid... not that I was any good at it but at least I could participate. :-)

Nouveau riche types are boring to death: they keep promoting themselves and telling you how big their house is, the length of their soddin' pool, the other fancy people they hang out with, etc. etc. George does that here too, incidentally. I think it stems out of some deep-rooted insecurity. Deep down they crave for admiration because they fear their own vacuity. So I doubt they enjoy each other's company. My guess is they hang around one another in order to satisfy their craving for some sort of status and peer recognition.

No skin off my nose. I can suffer the type when I need to. My technique is to lavish them with evidently forced admiration. "You have a jacuzi? Oh fuckin' WOOOOW!!! You live on Madison? WO-O-OWAH i can't believe it!!! etc. After a few retorts like that, even the stupidest ones start to wonder whether your admiration is serious or in jest, and then they relax a bit and behave as normal human beings.

Oh, well, all I really know in person is family. I have both in my family, poor as dirt family and rich as multi-millionaires family. My own particular family unit is closer to the poor as dirt but not quite, we can afford a few relative luxuries, just got jiggle a little with the budget which neither one of us is good at. Anyway, have more fun with the poor as dirt. But would like to go to a fancy party some day. Probably spend the whole time looking down wondering what fork to use. Me and my husband can slow dance, but that is about it. Never was taught the waltz. I don't have good rhythm for dancing. But then, I never danced with my hearing aides, might be an experience I might try someday...Sorry.

still like to be a fly on the wall at one of those redwood parties just to know what power people are planning next.

Oh yes. I desperately avoid counting up all the people I'll read or listen to in a day who are smarter, more knowledgeable, more rational, more rich in hope or with friends possessed, etc.

They do. But in the sphere of political issues and machinations, wealth and power take on a critical role in establishing how the community gets shaped. As an English linguist observed 100 plus years ago, "The difference between a language and a dialect is that the speakers of one have a navy". (*This points to a dynamic process I'm trying to better understand - it seems to me that the structures of power we grow up within profoundly influences how we perceive, think and construct our schemes of "reality". In the linguist's example, we come to view the navy-possessing dialect as a more legitimate instance of the thing. And it is the power alone which engenders that perception or construction of reality).

Good you ama.

Though without the sort of color that george could add, the wikipedia page for Bohemian Grove is quite informative. And there's a fair bit else via google search.

Thanks for the name. Looked it up, a lot more elite as you say than perhaps might be thought by some.

A shadowy and controversial secret club meets in the California woods every year — and at least 5 US presidents were members

Makes you wonder who we are talking to.

If that's a reference to george, nah, he is who he says he is. I've known him for a lot of years and he's essentially a good guy. Of course, he is part of the problem and will at some point have to be taken out back and shot with all the others but I'll miss him a bit.

One of the things I find objectionable about the way "elite" has come to be used is that it suggests the existence of a rather loathsome class of people who are tapped to fill positions at the top of our social hierarchy, much like the hapless "royals" of yore. But this is the contemporary USA, not pre-WWI Europe. Anyone can join the "elite" — all they need is money, and it doesn't matter how they get their hands on it. Trump is a great example — his daddy's wealth secured him a position in society where he could afford to buy anything he wanted, bed anyone he wished, and generally flaunt his tastelessness for all to see.

But then you see comments from people (who are often wealthy) claiming to speak for the "Great Unwashed" and indicting the "coastal elites". Often the target will be someone who's earned a college degree. Someone who assessed his position in society, surveyed his opportunities, and realized that an education was the ticket to opportunity. He didn't go into the family business. He left Smallville, studied hard, pursued a career, meeting influential people along the way. He develops a rich vocabulary, a taste for gourmet food and fine art, and maybe he drives a Volvo. The folks back in Smallville see him as the local boy who made good and they're proud that one of their own now moves among the "elite".

But, should our boy indicate that the hidebound traditions of his upbringing might be seen as limiting, that Smallville's conservative congressman should be replaced, that religion might mean more than fire and brimstone sermons about the sin of homosexuality, and that children should be vaccinated, well that means he's an elitist. Someone like Barack Obama. That's something very bad, but being an elite oligarch, like Trump, is just fine.

Speaking of elites, while I haven't really rubbed elbows with them I've worked in their gardens, built their kitchens, repaired their yachts, and played music at their weddings. I much prefer the blue bloods to the nouveau riche — I'd take George H. W. Bush over Trump any day.

How many times have you been told no one is buying that crap from you? Add one more time.

We were quite poor growing up, but never talked about money so I never felt envious or anything like that. But as a result, I always feel out of place in posh places, like I don't belong there.

My mother was a good dancer: she could do the paso doble, waltz, tango... Sadly now she can't hear much, even with the hearing aid.

Yes. And what are the chances that Trump or Hannity or Limbaugh will ever leave Miami beach or New York or Long Island and move to Smallville, Idaho so as to get closer to their real spiritual and social brethren?

Just a tad odd, ain't it.

Some years ago, I pointed out to george how Washington Irving's "Legend of Sleep Hollow", particularly as interpreted by Disney, is a classic example of the "intellectual" (interloper from the city) and the "practical man" (local boy) are portrayed and contrasted in American myth. The two main characters are below:







And of course the strapping local boy uses his practical local wisdom to chase the inferior bookish interloper out of the village.

Only in the movies. Not in real life.

Fortunately, Walt Disney wasn't racist, misogynist or a snob (elitist), right?