Progressives (Liberals)

@snood,

Nice try Snood, but denying reality will not change the fact that I'm infinitely smarter than you are.

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@BillW,

BillW wrote:

I didn't even mention a name

Don't be so dishonest. You made an arrow pointing up at my post.

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@snood,

Because you stupidly jump on it every time, hypocrite. Even yesterday, you accused Edgar of being a part of some evil pro-breitbart plan to disrupt democrats just for bringing news from their link.

But you can do it.

Disgusting.

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Mandatory buy-back is unconstitutional—and stupid. It is confiscation.

They’ll never get my gun.

Happy, now?

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Politicians who agree and disagree about mandatory buy back:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/politics/democrats-gun-control.amp.html

It IS confiscation.

Just ******* follow the laws already on the books.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

The plan is to fight for freedom, and often that fight claims lives.

I see a lot of fighting, yes, but not much planning beyond the planning that goes into conducting a violent street demonstration. What's the ultimate strategy?

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They are just not as capable of the sort of sophisticated, jaded thought of you and blatham.

Okay **** off with the sarcasm. I didn't say I was opposed to "freedom", I simply indicated my concern that there didn't seem to be a plan to attain political reforms to the system and I fear a heavy-handed crackdown by Beijing. I don't think rioting for the sake of rioting is particularly constructive and I don't want to see these people turned into martyrs.

Quote:

The Hong Kong freedom fighters are looking to America for support...

That's not really a "plan". Have any of their representatives come over to make a strong case before the Trump administration or Congress?

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@hightor,

Quote:

I fear a heavy-handed crackdown by Beijing.

We know they are capable of this.

I presume China's over-riding concern is that the Hong Kong protests will spread to the mainland. I don't know how thoroughly they are controlling information feeds at home but it can't be 100%.

Even if the leadership's mindset might permit some level of sovereignty for Hong Kong (and I don't know that it can) if they gain evidence of a spread of such notions, then for sure the urge to just crush opposition with utter cruelty could become their strategy.

I confess I really have no idea how China's economy - that is, it's trade relations with the rest of the world - might be playing in their calculations.

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Deval Patrick is in, it appears. This seems likely to be much more significant than Bloomberg's dalliance with running.

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@blatham,

From what I understand Beijing thinks of Hong Kong as a goose that lays golden eggs. It's where a lot of their international financial activities occur and it hosts many foreign firms that would prefer not to do business on the mainland. So they don't want to destroy the infrastructure, scare off the bankers and capitalists nor, as you earlier pointed out, conduct a massacre which is broadcast live around the world on Twitter.

Quote:

At the current Hong Kong protests, asking people there why they are protesting will nearly always get you the same answer: the five demands.

These are:
1 Full withdrawal of the extradition bill

The proposed extradition bill would have allowed for courts in other places, such as China and Taiwan, to ask for criminals to be handed over. The protests started over a general mistrust of the Chinese legal system.

Currently, the government has declared the bill “dead” and insists all work has stopped on the bill. But protesters demand the formal rules of withdrawing a bill be followed in the Legislative Council.

On September 4, Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor pledged to officially withdraw the law.

2 A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality

On June 12, police dispersed protesters outside Legco with what protesters say is excessive force. They have criticised these actions ever since. Protesters also have little confidence in the current police watchdog, the Independent Police Complaints Council.

3 Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters”

Shortly after June 12, when protesters surrounded Legco and forced the second reading of the fugitive bill to be stopped, the Chief Executive, and the Commissioner of Police Stephen Lo Wai-chung used the term "rioters" to describe protesters, which is a crime that can be punished by up to 10 years in prison.

4 Amnesty for arrested protesters

So far, more than 700 protesters have been arrested in connection with the anti-extradition bill protests so far, charged with crimes ranging from illegal assembly and assaulting police to rioting.

5 Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive

At the moment, only half the seats in Legco - the body which makes the city's laws - are directly elected by voters. The other 35 seats are from "functional" constituencies, an elected according to professions or trades. But this means that corporations and selected voters get to vote for the representative in their particular sector.

The Chief Executive is elected by a 1,200-member committee. Of those, 900 are representatives of different sectors of business, only elected by voters in that business. Of the 300 remaining members of the committee, 70 are members of the Legislative Council and others are representatives to the Chinese National People's Congress.

source

These demands don't seem that radical. Is Beijing completely prohibiting any dialogue? Are the protestors unified around these demands or are there elements who feel that any discussion with Hong Kong authorities is a dead end? I don't see the government just simply rolling over and granting the five demands in their entirety but I don't see any movement on the part of the protestors to negotiate either.

1 Reply

@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Because you stupidly jump on it every time, hypocrite. Even yesterday, you accused Edgar of being a part of some evil pro-breitbart plan to disrupt democrats just for bringing news from their link.

But you can do it.

Disgusting.

Heavens, the pearl clutching. Okay, I’ll give you that. I should not have used Fox, if I criticize others for using Fox.

Now, you going to acknowledge that what Bernie said about gun buybacks is significant , or are you just going to keep doing the shocked Scarlett O’Hara impression?

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@hightor,

Thank you for that data. That's helpful.

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Cenk Ugar - I haven't followed him lately. His filing to run for office was preceded by an endorsement of Sanders after he spent so much time pushing Warren. It seems self-serving, but I like his politics enough to give him a vote if I lived there.

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@Lash,

I agree it is impractical, we don't yet know if it is unconstitutional.

Furthermore, it is not really confiscation as the government would not be going into houses and taking guns out of the owners home.

There is actually a precedent for this just recently with Trump ban of bump stocks and order of the owners to turn their bump stocks in to the government. I haven't heard any arguments made that action was considered confiscation and unconstitutional.

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@revelette3,

revelette3 wrote:

we don't yet know if it is unconstitutional.

Yes we do. People have the right to have these guns. Therefore any attempt to ban them is unconstitutional.

And worse, the only reason why progressives are trying to ban these guns is because progressives think that it is fun to violate people's civil liberties.

revelette3 wrote:

There is actually a precedent for this just recently with Trump ban of bump stocks and order of the owners to turn their bump stocks in to the government. I haven't heard any arguments made that action was considered confiscation and unconstitutional.

Such arguments have in fact been made (not by me).

However, it is hard to make a case that people have the right to have bump stocks under the doctrine laid out in Heller.

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@revelette3,

revelette3 wrote:

Quote:
To be frank...you have no other reason. It's all about his sexuality
.

There is also his young age and lack of experience outside of being a mayor.

And we need to "evolve" to accept his age and lack of experience?

JFK
Obama

1 Reply

@hightor,

Quote:

Not exactly on topic but...

How is the situation in Hong Kong going to end? What's the plan? How much more damage can the protests do to the economy of the city? How many more protestors will die? As it is now, they're basically begging for a heavy-handed crackdown by Beijing. What's the endgame?

There seems to be some sort of collective death wish. It doesn't seem rational.

Do you support Hong Kong or do you support China? You seem to be rooting for China and against Hong Kong.

1 Reply

Michael Tracey
‏
Verified account

@mtracey
2h2 hours ago
More
Obama’s entire 2012 election strategy was (justifiably) centered on using Bain Capital to depict Romney as a heartless corporate raider, and 7 years later Obama encourages one of his closest allies to enter the Democratic race... fresh out of Bain Capital. Fatal irony overdose

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@Baldimo,

Quote:

You seem to be rooting for China and against Hong Kong.

Several members have suggested this and I don't understand how you've all arrived at this conclusion. I've expressed my concern for the demonstrators and I've asked how they might proceed. Continued protesting and rioting serves to make a point but it's a limited point. At some stage of the movement the sides will need to lay out some specific proposals going beyond the five demands I listed. I challenge you or anyone else to cite anyplace where I've been "rooting for China". While I've had a lifelong fascination with the culture and history of China, I'm not a big fan of China's one-party capitalist state or Xi's authoritarian rule. It's as if you, Lash, and Finn have already made up your minds as to how you believe I must think and don't even bother to deal with the substance of my posts on the subject. I don't want to see another Tiananmen styled bloodbath which would only serve to intensify the repression of the citizens of Hong Kong. If there are any constructive moves being planned which would lead to an end of the demonstrations and secure civil liberties in the territory I'd be interested in knowing what the next phase might be. That's why I posted my question.

1 Reply

@revelette3,

How will they enforce it? It is mandatory. That in itself is confiscation.

1 Reply

@hightor,

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Several members have suggested this and I don't understand how you've all arrived at this conclusion.

It's the way you are talking about the situation and some of he claims you have made in this post.

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How is the situation in Hong Kong going to end?

If you were pro-liberty and pro freedom, you would be rooting for the people of Hong Kong, not wondering how it was going to end. The end would be China leaving Hong Kong to be their own country. If you wonder how it's going to end, it leaves open the chance that HK is going to lose and be the subject of communist China forever.

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What's the plan?

Freedom and Liberty and the ability to govern themselves. What else do you think the plan is, to become slaves to communist China?

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How much more damage can the protests do to the economy of the city?

People who are fighting for freedom and liberty aren't concerned with their economy right now, they have more pressing concerns in making China leave them alone. Their economy will recover when this is over, unless China wins and then HK is doomed.

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How many more protestors will die?

In their eyes, as many as it takes to rid HK of China influence. I'm sure they are willing to fight to the death for liberty and freedom.

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As it is now, they're basically begging for a heavy-handed crackdown by Beijing. What's the endgame?

They want to be free of influence from China, they want to vote and determine how their country will work without communism trying to silence them. They don't want "social scores" to determine who can fly on a plane and who has to take a train.

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There seems to be some sort of collective death wish. It doesn't seem rational.

They want freedom. In HK, they have been flying US Flags because they know what freedom looks like, and they want what we have. Unlike you, whom it seems would choose safety over liberty, they think it's worth fighting and dying for. What about that don't you understand?

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I'm not a big fan of China's one-party capitalist state or Xi's authoritarian rule.

China is not a capitalist state, they are a communist state. It's comments like this that makes many of us think you are backing China over HK.

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I don't want to see another Tiananmen styled bloodbath which would only serve to intensify the repression of the citizens of Hong Kong.

From the sounds of it, you would rather they stop protesting and accept the communist rule to save their lives. Liberty is worth dying for, the people of HK see this, why don't you? Safety over liberty, doesn't lead to either.

2 Replies

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