Progressives (Liberals)

@Lash,

We're missing the video or textual evidence of what she actually said and the context of it. Unless you can find that and post it here.

The quote I attributed to her above was actually spoken by Bernie Sanders.

I went looking for such quotes from Bernie speaking in support of Clinton and knowing he'd done so. But that search brought up a very interesting and relevant page titled

Quote:

Sanders endorses Clinton, reversing everything he’s said about ‘Wall Street candidate’

The page goes on to quote Sanders during his campaign and then after the nomination battle was settled.

Quote:

On Tuesday, Senator Bernie Sanders gave up his presidential campaign and endorsed former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. “She must become our next president,” Sanders declared – a direct contradiction with what he has spent the past six months saying.

The implication of this page and it's contents is to suggest that Sanders, in the end, has no solid principles. That as soon as he pitched support for Clinton, he was abandoning all or nearly all of his prior statements and values.

The page is from the Russian news channel, RT. It's here

Of course, the goal here is to cause disaffection within Dem ranks. In this case specifically, to cause Sanders' supporters to doubt even Sanders himself and to suggest that Sanders had become just another willing cog in the corrupt Dem machine.

RT and its Russian allies along with GOP operatives playing the same game aren't going to cease their activities. They are on-going and surely expanded from levels of three years ago.

1 Reply

Sanders supported Clinton because it was the only viable alternative, as he saw it. Regardless of what was done and said during the 2016 campaign for the nominee, Sanders never abandoned his progressive roots, just put it on hold for strategic purposes.

1 Reply

@blatham,

Quote:

to cause Sanders' supporters to doubt even Sanders himself and to suggest that Sanders had become just another willing cog in the corrupt Dem machine.

As I've been saying for a while, that's easy to do with fake, opportunistic bernites... They are shallow and stupid and easy to manipulate. But real Bernie fans know better than that. They know that the guy is logically coherent, for instance, and therefore that if he participates in primaries, he will respect the results...

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Sanders supported Clinton because it was the only viable alternative, as he saw it.

No kidding. RT was, and is, playing a propaganda game. Spread disaffection, promote bad feelings, and all to decrease Dem voter turnout.

Sanders did not say, "If it ain't me, don't vote because anyone but me will be as bad as voting for Trump"

0 Replies

What is bothering me about the coverage right now is the inequality in the demand for accountability about paying for healthcare. Warren was dogged from the left by people calling her a Bernie clone and saying she had simply co-opted his plan. Then she is attacked from the right and pushed to issue details about how her plan would be paid for.

Biden is out here mocking Warren for being unrealistic - while out of the other side of his mouth he’s talking about placing hope in Republicans having an eventual “epiphany” that will move them to work with him. Where is the demand for his detailed plan? In fact, since Warren supposedly stole Bernie’s idea, where is the dogged pursuit of Bernie to publicly provide clear details and figures on paying for that plan?

Are those demands happening, and I’m just watching the wrong channels at the time? Or are they just not holding everyone to the same standards for providing detailed plans?

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Quote:

fake, opportunistic bernites... They are shallow and stupid and easy to manipulate.

Not quite sure I grasp this framing.

I think any candidate's followers will include some significant component who are sort of along for the ride but not terribly willing to get themselves well informed. There's a joy and sense of purpose that attends being part of a larger group working towards some goal. I don't begrudge them very much given that I'm not innocent of what is indicted here. I've enjoyed some Kool Aid in my life.

But my key criticisms of the pro-Sanders crowd are related to those who refuse to acknowledge the presence of bad actors within their community. Bad actors whose actual goal is to facilitate a GOP electoral victory through pushing dissent and misinformation.

After three years of Trump and this modern GOP, it really ought to be pretty ******* clear that the two parties are not the same and that the US is now far, far worse off than it would be if Clinton had been elected.

2 Replies

@snood,

It seems to me that Warren is an unusual case in terms of her published plans - the number of them and the level of detail provided. I might be wrong here but I actually can't remember another Dem candidate over the years who has been as thorough and open in this regard.

In one sense, it's a risky move that most candidates avoid. As soon as you get into the weeds like this, you provide targets to attack whereas if you stay general and foggy, those attacks are less likely to gain much traction. Biden is playing it "safe".

It's not clear at all to me (and probably to no one else either) which strategy will prove better electorally. But I have deep respect for the rationalism and honesty of such detailed proposals.

1 Reply

@blatham,

He's so stupid I quit following him.

0 Replies

Warren is the trojan horse to keep us a centrist, not progressive, nation. Meaning she will be better than a Clinton or Trump but she is a far cry from a Bernie Sanders.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Warren is the trojan horse to keep us a centrist, not progressive, nation.

I don't believe that is true at all, edgar. Trojan horse for the Wall Street Journal crowd? That's wrong by 180 degrees. For the evil DNC? Again, ya gotta be kidding.

You toss around the terms "centrist" and "progressive" in a manner that I find quite sloppy. No one, outside of a portion of the Sanders base, imagine Warren to be a centrist. I suppose if one is 4' 10" tall, another person who is 5' 3" could seem a potential basketball talent.

1 Reply

@blatham,

Quote:

my key criticisms of the pro-Sanders crowd are related to those who refuse to acknowledge the presence of bad actors within their community. Bad actors whose actual goal is to facilitate a GOP electoral victory through pushing dissent and misinformation.

I call these folks "fake bernites".

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Gotcha. Thanks.

1 Reply

@blatham,

You know, they can't be real Bernie fans if they don't actually support his core political beliefs... It's not a purity test, it's just logics. Trying to instrumentalize somebody for one's own benefit is a very different thing from supporting somebody.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

There is an oddness in this, for sure.

If, for example, it happens again that Sanders loses to another candidate and some cadre of self-identified Bernie supporters launch a campaign of disruption and dissent when Bernie throws his support to that other candidate, then they'll be claiming that they are more pure in their progressivism than Sanders himself. And then we could conclude either that they are some species of insane or that they are RT/GOP types out to **** the Dems. The latter will be the correct conclusion.

1 Reply

@blatham,

Elect her and see is all I have to say. If you can't see it by now I doubt you ever will. You still appear to have high regard for Hillary and the Obama years.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

You still appear to have high regard for Hillary and the Obama years.

I do. 20 million Americans now have health insurance who did not before. That is an unrivaled achievement in a long-standing progressive goal.

But it's not black and white, edgar. There are screw-ups that both made which have had serious negative consequences.

The thing is, no one is going to get through a campaign and one or two terms in that office who won't **** up in some important ways. If Sanders gets in, he will too.

1 Reply

Hmmm...pitfalls abound:

A good-faith reading of history and precedent would suggest that the Warren and Sanders wealth taxes are unconstitutional.

Quote:

Fortunately, there is much that Congress — in cooperation with a progressive president — could do to combat wealth inequality without running afoul of constitutional limitations. By closing loopholes and hiking rates on top earners, Congress could reduce inequality and raise trillions of dollars without a constitutional hiccup.

But a wealth tax that is struck down by the justices will do nothing to close the wealth gap. It will raise no money to pay for universal health care and child care, greater investments in education or ambitious efforts to halt global warming. It will, instead, mire the country and the courts in yearslong litigation. And it will most likely lead to a Supreme Court ruling that sends us back to square one in our fight to fix a tax system that all too often favors the rich.

1 Reply

@snood,

Word, or in my words, good post.

0 Replies

@hightor,

I gotta to admit, both seemed chancy to single out a group just because of their income level. It seems farther than having millionaires pay their fair share by removing all the gimmicks and safe havens which make it possible for the ultra rich and big companies to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

1 Reply

@blatham,

Quote:

If, for example, it happens again that Sanders loses to another candidate and some cadre of self-identified Bernie supporters launch a campaign of disruption and dissent when Bernie throws his support to that other candidate, then they'll be claiming that they are more pure in their progressivism than Sanders himself.

That's one of the worries: people who 'support' Sanders upto a point, as long as he's deemed useful to them, and then dump him as soon as he isn't useful to them as they did already in 2015-16.

Another, related worry is that, by disparaging other candidates and democrats, the fake bernites are actually undermining Sanders' capacity to forge useful political alliances. If he wins the nomination, he will need 1) a VP candidate, and 2) the party's full support in the general. And of course the fake bernites will cry 'treason' if his VP choice is not a clone of Sanders and if the DNC supports him...

Ed and Lash do not, in effect, support Bernie. They may like him, they may think they support him, but in truth they betray him.

1 Reply

Progressives (Liberals)

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know