edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 09:46 am
@blatham,
Only a couple.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 09:47 am
@edgarblythe,
I'll send you a bottle of Diplomat vodka.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 09:49 am
@blatham,
You seem to believe Russians are behind Bernie's success. Or something that totally obfuscates the real problems we face.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:21 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
You seem to believe Russians are behind Bernie's success.
Never said it. Never thought it. Bernie is a sane and sincere voice for politics of the sort I support.

What academics understand, what intel agencies around the world have discerned is that Russians have involved themselves with broad and deep covert initiatives in the last and present elections designed specifically to damage Clinton's electoral chances and to cause division and discontent on the left. And much of that activity has been directed towards pro-Sanders social media inhabitants.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:48 am
@blatham,
Russian propaganda seeks any niche that will harbor it. Why people focus solely on Sanders supporters over it is something else again. I personally and the Sanders supporters I get friendly with are not dupes.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:55 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Why people focus solely on Sanders supporters over it is something else again.
If you are referring to intel agencies or tech companies or scholars studying what's happening, they don't focus on Sanders supporters. They trace the sources and determine goals of troll activity wherever they can be detected.

The simple reason it comes up here so often is because this thread centers on the Sanders campaign and because you and Lash both forward tweets and claims that match or reflect exactly what the Russian trolls are up to.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:17 am
We live in a society that routinely produces papers and studies to prove almost anything.

If I point out that Warren voted for increasing military spending, robbing us of infrastructure or other social funds, and a Russian bot makes the same point, it's not a score for the bot. But your statistics may record that it is. Not my problem.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:30 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
We live in a society that routinely produces papers and studies to prove almost anything.
Therefore, there is no means to ascertain what is true and what is false or what is likely and what improbable. No way of knowing if global warming is happening. No way to know if Trump is corrupt. No way of knowing if vaccines cause autism. No way of knowing if the biblical flood story is factual. No way of telling whether the universe is billions of years old or if it was all created in a six day work week God put in 4004 years ago.

Is that your argument?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:34 am
@blatham,
I'm saying you have to weigh what's on the ground against all the "facts" we are daily inundated with. Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:58 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I'm saying you have to weigh what's on the ground against all the "facts" we are daily inundated with.
But how the hell do you or I know what is "on the ground"? We aren't in DC. We aren't in senior briefings. We aren't in Trump's office when he makes phone calls. We aren't in Leningrad reading over the shoulder of trolls as they type. We, me in Canada and you in Texas (I think) can look out and see the weather on the ground but that tells us nothing in itself about GW. We have to study. We have to read widely. There's no other way around this problem of moving towards real knowledge (and certainty is definitely not knowledge).
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 12:02 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

What academics understand, what intel agencies around the world have discerned is that Russians have involved themselves with broad and deep covert initiatives in the last and present elections designed specifically to damage Clinton's electoral chances and to cause division and discontent on the left. And much of that activity has been directed towards pro-Sanders social media inhabitants.
That's a fairly broad assertion about what the Russians may have been doing and their possible motives for it. Do you have any references for authoritative statements from intel agencies to back it up? My impression is they don't usually issue such things. There are many academics out there and various of them "understand" many different and often conflicting things. Who are some of those who support your rather broad and specific statement?

Finally it is far from evident to me just how Putin or the Russian Government might calculate any benefit to themselves for a Clinton defeat in the 2016 election. The Obama administrating had been very accommodating following the Russian aggression in Georgia. As Sec. State Clinton had just facilitated the sale of most operating North American uranium mines to a Russian consortium, and Trumps' already announced (during the campaign) energy policies threatened to significantly reduce the value of the petroleum and natural gas export commodities on which the rather weak Russian economy depends . It is plausible and consistent with history to assume the creation of internal discord and confusion in the U.S. might well have been a Russian motivation for such activities. However the absence of any plausible Russian motivation for a Clinton defeat in the election after all that makes this conclusion more of a self-created Clinton rationalization for her unexpected defeat.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 12:11 pm
@georgeob1,
Kablamm. Haha.

Please get with the program and do as he says, not as he does.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 12:54 pm
@blatham,
I have been watching trends, politicians, organizations, what-all, all of my adult life. You can't trust many people on either side of red/blue to not manipulate your entire existence. I watch until what people do begins to not make sense, then I focus on other things done by them and others supporting them. I rarely rely on studies and position papers, just the results of what is being done.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 01:28 pm
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 01:34 pm
New York Times
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/joe-hunter-biden-ukraine.amp.html

Excerpt:

Frank Sesno, a former broadcast journalist and the director of the School of Media and Public Affairs at George Washington University, said ignoring questions about Hunter Biden altogether would be irresponsible journalism. “I have not seen egregious, irresponsible reporting at all,” he said, adding, “When the president of the United States says something publicly, you can’t make that go away and no responsible news organization is going to ignore it.”

Senior aides on the Biden campaign argue that the Clinton campaign was not forceful enough in responding to the long drip of stories about her use of a private email server and the Clintons’ family foundation. Those news reports, they argue, only helped to feed Mr. Trump’s narrative that his rival was an untrustworthy creature of Washington.

Rather than litigate the specifics in public, Biden aides and allies argue that Mrs. Clinton and her team should have focused more on privately shaming the media out of investigating allegations, while leaving Mrs. Clinton focused on attacking Mr. Trump and delivering her own message to voters. The allies spoke on condition of anonymity to disclose conversations about campaign strategy.

“Democrats are very wary of a candidate being Hillary-ed going into 2020,” said Zac Petkanas, the director of rapid response for Clinton’s 2016 campaign.

Karen Finney, a former Clinton campaign spokeswoman who is unaligned in the 2020 race, said Democrats “spent a lot more time talking about Hillary Clinton’s emails than we should have, given some of the more glaringly troubling actions of Trump.”

Unlike Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Biden is unlikely to ever spend time diving into the details of the allegations, aides say, fearing that doing so would allow Mr. Trump’s allegations to further hijack the national political conversation.

Former Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, who hosted a Biden campaign in his front yard but has yet to endorse any candidate for president, said, “He understands that you can’t let something like this go.”

“But you have to be thoughtful about how you respond to it so that you don’t let the president, with all of his capacity to impact folks like you to write what he says every day, to control the complete narrative,” he added.

Mr. Biden’s team is learning lessons from 2016. Among them: No one else will fight your battles.
Mr. Biden’s team is learning lessons from 2016. Among them: No one else will fight your battles. CreditMark Makela for The New York Times
Throughout the 2020 race, Mr. Biden has pitched himself as the strongest candidate to combat Mr. Trump’s attacks. Whether combating Mr. Trump through the mainstream media proves correct will provide voters with a critical, real-time test of his strength, as allegations that Mr. Trump pressured the president of Ukraine to open a corruption investigation of Mr. Biden and his son Hunter are at the heart of a political firestorm that prompted Democrats on Tuesday to begin impeachment proceedings.

Mr. Biden’s rivals, too, are watching closely: While they have responded to the developments on Ukraine by denouncing Mr. Trump’s actions, several camps are privately gaming out how they would handle a similar onslaught from the president and his allies.

“We’ve got to remember that they’ll either find a vulnerability or they’ll invent one for everybody,” Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Ind., told reporters traveling on his campaign bus.

But even some opponents privately worry that this moment could elevate Mr. Biden’s campaign if he handles it deftly, putting the former vice president on equal footing with the president and making it hard for his rivals to get their share of attention.

“Trump’s lost it and he’s terrified of Biden, and Biden’s not going to take any of his guff at all,” said Mr. McAuliffe. “This is actually good for Joe Biden. It puts him right at the forefront.”

There is no evidence so far to support Mr. Trump’s claim that Mr. Biden improperly intervened to help his son’s business in Ukraine. But that hasn’t stopped the Trump campaign from pushing the allegations, giving Mr. Biden the nickname “Quid Pro Joe.” (Mr. Trump himself seems to be sticking with “Sleepy Joe.”
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 02:35 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It is plausible and consistent with history to assume the creation of internal discord and confusion in the U.S. might well have been a Russian motivation for such activities.

Any speculation as to why Russia worked to encourage Brexit?
Quote:
However the absence of any plausible Russian motivation for a Clinton defeat in the election after all that makes this conclusion more of a self-created Clinton rationalization for her unexpected defeat.

For one thing, she was thought to be more hawkish — ask any Sanders supporter. And Putin never forgave her for supporting opposition demonstrations and questioning the legitimacy of the Russian elections in 2011.

Quote:
In December 2011, Vladimir Putin came closer than he’s ever been to losing his hold on power. His decision that year to run for a third term as Russia’s President had inspired a massive protest movement against him. Demonstrations calling for him to resign were attracting hundreds of thousands of people across the country. Some of his closest allies had defected to the opposition, causing a split in the Kremlin elites, and Russian state media had begun to warn of a revolution in the making.

At a crisis meeting with his advisers on Dec. 8 of that year, the Russian leader chose to lay the blame on one meddling foreign diplomat: U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

“She set the tone for certain actors inside the country; she gave the signal,” Putin said of Clinton at the time, accusing her of ordering the opposition movement into action like some kind of revolutionary sleeper cell. “They heard this signal and, with the support of the U.S. State Department, started actively doing their work.”

time

I believe you may be misinformed about the uranium mines; here's James Conca from Forbes:

Quote:

(...)

Obama and Clinton colluding to hand over 20% America’s strategic uranium to the Russians? On cue, Fox News gabber Sean Hannity said this could be 'the biggest scandal' in American history.

But here's the thing: by 20%, we really mean almost zero.

Those U.S. facilities obtained by Russia produce almost nothing. The uranium deposits are of relatively poor grade and are too costly to compete on the uranium market. But the facilities do have good milling capacity to process ore, if anyone gives it to them, which hasn’t happened in about 10 years. Theoretically, they could process 20% of our ore, but that will never happen. Uranium One couldn’t give these facilities away.

Besides, Russia can’t export any uranium they produce in the U.S. They do not possess a Nuclear Regulatory Commission export license.

The real reason Russia wanted this deal was to give Rosatom’s subsidiary Uranium One's very profitable uranium mines in Kazakhstan, the single largest producer of commercial uranium in the world.

(...)

The political ramifications aside, what is the reality of our uranium supplies, and how much does Russian meddling affect them?

Short answer – not at all.

There’s lots and lots of uranium in the world, and more keeps being discovered. Just look at the 2017 AAPG EMD Committee Report that covers uranium, other nuclear minerals and rare earth elements.

According to the lead author, Michael Campbell at I2M Associates, 'we are awash in uranium, not to mention all energy minerals oil, coal and especially natural gas.' (Disclosure: I am a member of that committee and a co-author of the report.)

This is especially true in North America, which contains the highest-grade uranium deposits in the world. The Athabasca Basin of Saskatchewan is known as the 'Saudi Arabia of Uranium.'

more

I don't know if Putin personally wanted Trump to win. But I think it's pretty obvious that he wanted Clinton to lose.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 04:32 pm
Where were you all when Putin was asked in a televised interview if he wanted Trump to win? He said he did.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/16/putin-trump-win-election-2016-722486
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 06:00 pm
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:12 pm
@edgarblythe,
By laughing? Will that really work or will Elizabeth Warren stare at him until he stops?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Sep, 2019 05:19 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
That's a fairly broad assertion about what the Russians may have been doing and their possible motives for it. Do you have any references for authoritative statements from intel agencies to back it up?
You've kind of stunned me with that, george. I know your information sources are as thin as hammered ****, but god in heaven.

God knows how many posts - just here on A2K - from myself and many others have detailed this matter with links to source materials, but it's 40 or 100 or more. It's been covered by every major news outlet in the US and abroad for years (including similar Russian tactics outside of the US). It's a key finding of the Mueller investigation. It has been the subject of countless news releases from all the major tech companies operating international platforms such as Twitter and Facebook. The internet security sector has been monitoring this activity throughout and has not been silent about their findings. Foreign governments have made many statements verifying such activity. Etc etc. How is it even possibly you could ask that question?

I'm going to give you one link to wikipedia's page on this. Within that page are over 500 footnotes to source material. Here are the two introductory graphs...
Quote:
The Russian government interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election with the goal of harming the campaign of Hillary Clinton, boosting the candidacy of Donald Trump, and increasing political and social discord in the United States.

The Internet Research Agency, based in Saint Petersburg and described as a troll farm, created thousands of social media accounts that purported to be Americans supporting radical political groups, and planned or promoted events in support of Trump and against Clinton; they reached millions of social media users between 2013 and 2017. Fabricated articles and disinformation were spread from Russian government-controlled media, and promoted on social media. Additionally, computer hackers affiliated with the Russian military intelligence service (GRU) infiltrated information systems of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC), and Clinton campaign officials, notably chairman John Podesta, and publicly released stolen files and emails through DCLeaks, Guccifer 2.0 and WikiLeaks during the election campaign. Finally, several individuals connected to Russia contacted various Trump campaign associates, offering business opportunities to the Trump Organization and damaging information on Clinton. Russian government officials have denied involvement in any of the hacks or leaks...
HERE

Please don't ask me another question which evidences that you haven't even bothered to read this.


 

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