RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Sep, 2019 12:53 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
Could Ollie be a Russian trumpie?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Sep, 2019 01:40 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Argument by ignorance? You don't know that others will do more good than him either...
Yup. That's kind of my point. We'll all be making guesses.

Quote:
he had a deep impact on the DP and its policies, and many of the other candidates are parroting him. Give him the White House and he will change the nation.
The first sentence is true. The second sentence does not logically follow from the first. You or I may have faith that this will happen but it is a faith stance. If Dems don't take the Senate, little will change in the direction of serious progressive goals (regardless of who wins the nomination).
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Sep, 2019 03:19 pm
@blatham,
True. At least you recognize reality.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 12:35 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Argument by ignorance? You don't know that others will do more good than him either...

Yup. That's kind of my point. We'll all be making guesses.

That's irrelevant to my point to Rabel, which was that Sanders won't probably be able to achieve all that he wants to do, but that doesn't matter because at least he will try, and in trying he will achieve some.

Quote:
Quote:
he had a deep impact on the DP and its policies, and many of the other candidates are parroting him. Give him the White House and he will change the nation.
The first sentence is true. The second sentence does not logically follow from the first.

Yes it does. Sanders is an influencer, a fighter, a debater. The white house is a big bully pulpit. Give it to Sanders and he will change the nation.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 12:42 am
@RABEL222,
Defeatist.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 12:55 am
@Olivier5,
Unfortunately Sanders wants to violate our civil liberties for fun.

So do all of the other Democratic presidential candidates, so he's not abnormal in this, but it's still a problem.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 03:29 am
The New Socialism Retweeted

Michael
@mcyost
·
7h
Replying to
@kthalps
Democrats: "We need to win over Republican voters if we want to beat Trump."

Bernie: *appeals to Republican voters with a populist economic agenda*

Democrats: "wait, no, not like that"
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 03:30 am
@Olivier5,
Idealist.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 03:38 am
Given the ‘unrealistic’ aspect of the idealistic definition, it appears facts are not on your side.

Bernie has made sweeping changes already—without the power of the bully pulpit and executive orders.

It is only your lack of belief that deems the changes to American society ‘idealistic.’ Bernie’s accomplishments are evidence that his goals are realistic...and in progress.



hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 03:57 am
@Lash,
I posted that one word response as a counter to Olivier's one word accusation to point out the inadequacy of mere name-calling.

Quote:
It is only your lack of belief that deems the changes to American society ‘idealistic.’


It's only the march of history which leads to my lack of "belief" and my perspective of political pessimism. I haven't seen Sanders's "sweeping changes" or "accomplishments" as the USA is still governed by Trump and McConnell. I'm willing to vote for change but I'm not gullible enough to think that wishing for something can overturn facts on the ground.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 04:02 am
@hightor,
This conversation reminds me of a lengthy argument here about the possibility of Barak Obama being elected. Several members were up in arms, stating that it was quite evident that the US was not going to elevate a black man to the presidency based on the fact that they had not yet done it.

🗝

Meanwhile, $15. minimum wage is now a reality for several businesses when it was a pipe dream before Bernie started championing it around the country. Hillary Clinton and her mouthpieces promised that Medicare For All “will never happen,” yet almost the entire field of democrats has adopted this plank in their campaign platform—or at least try hard to make it seem as though they have, but the miraculous one for me is campaign finance reform.

In my LIFE, I’ve never seen candidates fueling political campaigns on donations
by voters. This very recent phenomenon is now de rigueur for the party and a point of serious contention for progressives.

These are sweeping changes to business as usual for democrats, driven by Bernie Sanders and progressives.

Another edit—Bernie has continually called out the prison for profit system and is using his popularity to bring awareness to the modern slavery that is the US incarceration process. We ensnare black and brown people in the system intentionally, perpetrate an ungodly bail system to keep them, and profit from their slave labor—enriching lawmakers who orchestrated and maintain this system. Bernie will stop it. All you need is someone willing to go against these corrupt machines. He’s the only one who has the integrity + the balls.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 04:19 am
@hightor,
That's fair. I am an idealist.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 04:31 am
@Lash,
And we did elect Barack Obama and progressives are still bemoaning his "failed presidency". It illustrates my point perfectly:
Quote:
I'm willing to vote for change but I'm not gullible enough to think that wishing for something can overturn facts on the ground.


Was I happy that Obama defeated McCain? Sure. Do I think Obama fundamentally changed the course of USAmerican history? Nope. Do I believe that Sanders, or anyone else with similar revolutionary zeal, can be elected in a landslide and overcome the forces arrayed against him and all the rest of us? No, I don't. But unlike many people on this site, I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to have you and Olivier sneering, "We told you so!" in 2021 as the USA is put firmly on the course of democratic socialism. So make me happy and surprise me at the polls. But quit trying to make me think as you do and implying there's something wrong with people that don't share your outlook.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 04:33 am
@hightor,
Of course, I was following that exchange, but words have meaning—I agreed wholeheartedly that Olivier pegged the sentiment he judged as defeatist accurately.

Your idealist, with its unrealistic component, missed the mark. It’s realistic if you make it so.

A multitude of Americans are working like an army, making it so. Join us.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 04:35 am
@hightor,
I didn’t have any hopes about obama’s presidency, just the knowledge that our country was ready to elect a black president.

That happened.

I didn’t understand why anyone thought it would be a different kind of presidency.

Everyone understands that a Sanders presidency will be different.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 04:41 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

And we did elect Barack Obama and progressives are still bemoaning his "failed presidency". It illustrates my point perfectly:
Quote:
I'm willing to vote for change but I'm not gullible enough to think that wishing for something can overturn facts on the ground.


Was I happy that Obama defeated McCain? Sure. Do I think Obama fundamentally changed the course of USAmerican history? Nope. Do I believe that Sanders, or anyone else with similar revolutionary zeal, can be elected in a landslide and overcome the forces arrayed against him and all the rest of us? No, I don't. But unlike many people on this site, I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to have you and Olivier sneering, "We told you so!" in 2021 as the USA is put firmly on the course of democratic socialism. So make me happy and surprise me at the polls. But quit trying to make me think as you do and implying there's something wrong with people
that don't share your outlook.

Legitimate liberals will never be this close again. To want a Sanders reality, yet not reach for it when it is in your grasp, to me, is unforgivable.

I have so much more respect for those honest racists who say who they are and fight against it than the lukewarm sunny day so-called liberal that cowers away, afraid to stand up for what they know is right. We can have what we need if we fight for it.

Not assigning any characterizations here to anyone specific.
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 05:04 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Legitimate liberals will never be this close again.

I'll bet Biden supporters are thinking this as well!
Quote:
Not assigning any characterizations here to anyone specific.

Oh, that's okay, I don't take offense that easily. If your guy gets the nomination I'll work for him but at this point I'm not convinced that a clear majority of Democrats and independents will coalesce behind him. I don't see anyone else at that point yet either. Since I usually end up supporting losers it's probably better that I don't back anybody right now!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 05:28 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Nothing would make me happier than to have you and Olivier sneering, "We told you so!" in 2021 as the USA is put firmly on the course of democratic socialism. 

Oh you know I would never do that... More to the point, I'm not saying the US can be turned around so quickly. It took two decades for the well-funded rightist onslaught on American public opinion (amply documented by Blatham on these threads) to bend the electorate askew enough that they elected Trump.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 07:33 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Legitimate liberals
And none better to spot a legit lib than a Palin supporter.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Sep, 2019 09:15 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Legitimate liberals will never be this close again. To want a Sanders reality, yet not reach for it when it is in your grasp, to me, is unforgivable.


I fear a rather long reach will be required for a figure with views as tiresomely shopworn, divisive, and self-destructive as those advocated by Senator Sanders. He is a Socialist, right out of the mold of the late 20th century figures who brought so much stagnation and poverty to the European and post Colonial African nations they governed.

Bernie continues to enjoy the enthusiastic and consistent support of ~ 25% of the Democrat electorate, but so far has exhibited very little ability to get beyond that or to attract new voters from the middle of the political spectrum. To a large degree Elizabeth Warren appears to have analogous characteristics in her appeal to voters. The hoped for remedy of the Democrat Establishment for this was Joe Biden . Now that remedy appears to be unraveling.

In such a situation doubling down on support for more radical favored contenders is a somewhat understandable, but flawed, approach.
 

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