RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Aug, 2019 07:50 pm
@edgarblythe,
Which is one hell of a lot better than the government we have now. By about 1000%.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Aug, 2019 08:00 pm
As lash says St Bernie the god will take us all with him to his mythical government heaven in spite of the nasty republican senate. All those who believe that line up here to buy a part of the bridge I own in Brooklyn.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Aug, 2019 08:15 pm
@RABEL222,
People who believe that don't understand that what went on prior to the Trump presidency was a drifting toward a right-wing takeover for 30 years. If it hadn't happened in 2016, it would happen in 2020. Democrats have mounted just token resistance to the right for decades.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Aug, 2019 08:36 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
a right-wing takeover for 30 years.
Can you point me to any scholarly writing that details how this happened? (by "scholarly" I mean work that's comparable to Mayer or Rick Perlstein or Norm Ornstein, etc)
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Aug, 2019 11:17 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Edgar wrote
Quote:
The whole country's government, all three branches plus so many states were overwhelmed by the right-wing.
There's obvious truth to that assertion/observation. But I wish I saw some evidence that Edgar and Lash have attended to the serious studies on how this has come about. It really isn't nearly adequate, insightful or helpful to merely insist that "the Dems failed to support progressive values". And when you get causation wrong, your prescriptions for resolution aren't going to make the grade.

Dems have been complacent, not aggressive enough, and even defeatist. You can see it here: the tone is "we can't do ****, we're doomed, it will never work, voters are idiots".
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 12:21 am
@blatham,
Do you mean that you aren’t 100% aware of the huge shift to the right in this country?? As much as you say you read?? Maybe you should stop reading and just look and think!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/amphtml/USA/Politics/2011/0731/America-s-big-shift-right

But Hatch's troubles also say something about the way in which the nation's political needle has been moving. Over the past four decades – and more sharply over just the past few years – the geopolitical center of America has shifted rightward. It hasn't happened on all fronts – certainly, there are some areas where the country has clearly moved to the left, such as views on gay rights. But on a host of other issues, from guns to the role of government, the center of debate has edged closer to the conservative position, while activists on the right have moved even further out on the political spectrum.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 12:37 am
Democrats intentionally move to the right rather than figure out an authentic left—they capitulated to the popularity of Reagan

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2152360?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 01:16 am
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/bernie-sanders-green-new-deal-is-the-hail-mary-this-planet-needs/

Bernie Sanders’ breathtaking Green New Deal, with an advertised price tag of $16.3 trillion, is aimed at nothing less than saving the planet from the worst consequences of global heating.

The plan aims to create 20 million new, well-paying jobs. It should be noted that one possible outcome of big Federal R&D monies and a rapid shift to renewables would be to revivify the US industrial sector, which has fallen to only 12 percent or so of the US GDP. Although the price tag seems formidable, Sen. Sanders points out that climate inaction will cost $34 trillion (I would add, at the very least) by 2100.

Yuval Rosenberg at the Fiscal Times quotes the response of the centrist Third Way think tank, which appears to represent mainly investment bankers, as criticizing Sanders’ plan on a number of points. They lament that he sidelines nuclear energy and carbon capture, and that his goal of getting rid of gasoline vehicles by 2030 is not realistic. If you reason back from these positions, what is being said is that moving quickly off coal, oil and gas is undesirable. Who would say that? Big coal, big oil and big gas, the profits of which are beloved of investment bankers. Likewise, big nuclear.

So let me explain why the critique from Third Way is pernicious. First, there is no such thing as affordable, safe, carbon capture. It is a unicorn. Even if CO2 could be captured, storing carbon dioxide gas would be extremely dangerous. When CO2 leaked from under a lake in the Cameroons, it killed thousands of people living on its shores.

Second, nuclear energy is useless in our new energy regime. Wind and solar will be the backbone, and they are intermittent. The sun doesn’t shine at night, wind often calms during the day. Until we get Big Battery capacity (which is coming rapidly), you need a baseline source of power that can be easily phased in and out. That is either hydro where it exists, or natural gas. It takes way too long to power down a nuclear plant and then power it back up. It is useless. Not to mention that the nuclear waste cannot be safely disposed of and poses very long term contamination problems. Not to mention that the plants can melt down and damage riparian ecosystems. Worst of all, nuclear-generated electricity costs 11 cents a kilowatt hour. New solar and wind bids are being let for less than 3 cents a kilowatt hour, even cheaper than coal.

As for taking transportation electric quickly, of course that can be accomplished. Maybe it won’t happen in a US dominated by Big Oil, but Sanders intends to push those corporations aside and institute a Federal industrial policy that can make things happen. The analogy is what Franklin Delano Roosevelt accomplished during World War II, when US industrial capacity vastly expanded and 16 million men were mobilized and Social Security was implemented.

These things aren’t as hard as they look, though admittedly it is a massive undertaking. In the US, 17.2 million light vehicles are sold annually, so in ten years that is 172 million. There are 272 mn. light vehicles on the road. So I conclude that the market replaces 64% of the vehicle stock every decade (helped by planned obsolescence). Therefore, if you require that all new vehicles be electric, you’d switch out 64% of the gasoline cars in a decade. (Chine already today makes an $8000 EV; so can Detroit if they’re incentivized). Putting in more public transportation and incentives for using it would make many of the other vehicles redundant. Trade-in incentives could mothball those that are left. The Obama administration already did a small version of this sort of buy-back, taking older polluting gas guzzlers off people’s hands for a rebate on a new vehicle. Trump’s tax cut on billionaires cost trillions, and over a decade his increase in the war budget will also cost trillions. The US spends more on war than the next 14 countries combined, and is expected to spend $7 trillion on “defense” over the next decade, even though we have no peer powers. Nobody thought those things impossible or fantastic.

Britain spends $45 bn. a year on defense and it has 1/4 the population of the US, so that is as though the US spent less than $200 billion a year on the Pentagon. We could go down to that and save a trillion dollars every two years for useful and productive things instead of for bombs to sell the Saudis to drop on Yemeni children. The US military is among the biggest carbon-emitting organizations in the world, so maybe we could cut those emissions, too. Bernie’s plan would be paid for in this way alone in about 32 years.

The plan is set to pay for itself over 15 years in these ways:

Making the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies.

Generating revenue from the wholesale of energy produced by the regional Power Marketing Authorities. Revenues will be collected from 2023-2035, and after 2035 electricity will be virtually free, aside from operations and maintenance costs.

Scaling back military spending on maintaining global oil dependence.

Collecting new income tax revenue from the 20 million new jobs created by the plan.

Reduced need for federal and state safety net spending due to the creation of millions of good-paying, unionized jobs.

Making the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share.

The selfish and greedy elites of the US Establishment will attempt to kill this plan just in the same way that they are killing the planet. It will only succeed if the public rallies to it, urgently seeking to limit the damage to their children’s and grandchildren’s lives done by carbon dioxide, methane, and the rest.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 01:20 am
@Lash,
That 1995 article actually reflects 1991, 1992 and 1993 interviews.

It's generally acknowledged that the "New Democrats" were a centrist faction (by US standards) of the Democratic Party.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 07:36 am
I am slightly older than the baby boomers or whatever they are. I don't need a scholar to tell me what I have witnessed with my own eyes. The problem is, it has slipped in slowly enough that people become used to these increments in reverse that they think it's normal at each stage. Even so, I can't get over how when Clinton ditched so many Democratic Party programs and principles for Republican ones Democrats lauded his political acumen, saying, "That will teach those Republicans to mess with our president."
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 08:01 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Dems have been complacent, not aggressive enough, and even defeatist. You can see it here: the tone is "we can't do ****, we're doomed, it will never work, voters are idiots".
That doesn't answer the questions as to why.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 08:09 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Do you mean that you aren’t 100% aware of the huge shift to the right in this country??
Penetrating rhetorical question. The question was - what scholarly work can be cited which seeks to understand how/why this happened in America in recent times.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  4  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 08:13 am
@Olivier5,
It depends on the makeup of congress and the makeup of the courts of what any party is realistically able to do. When Obama first came, he had more of a chance to get Obamacare through but the window wasn't very long and it was barely enough, but enough. If you don't have filibuster proof majority, in today's political climate, getting anything done is better than getting nothing at all done. The right and the left are just too divided in congress. Moreover, many of the accomplishments Obama was able to get through, was challenged by the lawsuits and some were struck down. Now we have even more of a right wing judges than we did then. Ginsberg is dying, she will probably die soon enough for Trump to try and get another judge in the supreme court.

My point is that dealing with reality is not being doomsday, it is being smart enough to start out big but being able compromise to get what you can get. Obama wasn't able to get anything because McConnell was determined he wouldn't be able to. I doubt anyone else can or will get away with that again. I hope with my whole heart, he either retires for some personal reason, or with any hope and prayer at all, he is voted out and we elect a democrat president, any democrat president, and filibuster proof congress. Or at least enough to have majorities.

Bill Clinton was always a centrist, Obama wasn't although he gets the name. He wasn't as far left as some today and he was more compromising. He fought like crazy to get a gun legislation going but was unsuccessful. There was many other things he fought for and was again unsuccessful, that doesn't mean he wanted the other side to win, it just meant he failed to get what he wanted.

Lets say workers in a company are fighting for a specific wage of $15 an hour. In the end, the employers agreed to $10 an hour. Some would agree to take the $10 but others would accuse them of being a sale out. The ones who are uncompromising would rather not get a raise at all in the hopes of finally getting the $15. That sort of explains the difference between most ordinary democrats and these new far left uncompromising left. Not all progressives are uncompromising.


Sometimes we are simply in a position where employers have no incentives to give raises at all because they suffer no harm because they can always find other people willing to work at the minimum wage. That explains a lot of the positions some of these ideas from Bernie Sanders has.

His goals are laudable, but it would be more practical to build up to climate change and the green new deal. I like his speech in KY where he talked to a lot of Kentuckians about the issues of people who depend on coal for a living and providing new ways for new jobs of renewable energy. Those ideas are hardly new. But I was glad he made the speech where he made it and hope it convinces some of the listeners.


However, we have to face the reality of the power of congress and the power of local government as well who are in opposition and have the power to block these ideas.


Moreover, doing every single thing Bernie wants to do, would just be unfeasible when you add it all up. I mean it is a long expensive list.


I know I don't articulate it well, but I am trying to explain the difference in being practical and just being a doomsayer.


Lastly, I wish Biden would drop out. It is painful to watch a good intentioned man on national TV shows visible signs of aging and memory loss.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 08:23 am
@Lash,
You found two paragraphs of an excerpt from a book I'll wager you haven't read. Now, re-read the final sentence of paragraph two. Reagan was very popular. Why? Why were citizens tempted to move to the right because, as voters, they did. Clinton or the DNC didn't cause that. They had to face it.
Reagan's popularity needed to be countered in some fashion by Dem candidates. Clinton won his elections - which is the primary point of a campaign.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 08:34 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I am slightly older than the baby boomers or whatever they are. I don't need a scholar to tell me what I have witnessed with my own eyes.
The difference in your age and mine is insignificant, Edgar. But more to the point, we've all witnessed with our own eyes events and trends in the past. For any one of us to insist their interpretation/understanding of how things went down and why they happened that his/her version is correct and others' are false isn't terribly convincing. Getting past and above fixed or generally accepted ideas through careful scholarship and study is kind of the whole game in using our intellects properly. To merely say something like , "I've lived it, I've seen it, and I know the moon landing was faked" or "I know that Sarah Palin would be a great leader", isn't satisfactory.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 08:41 am
Warren comes out to a very excited crowd

Quote:
Warren comes out to a very excited crowd. Campaign says there are 15000 people here, the biggest crowd of the campaign and a VERY long selfie line in the same week she drew 12k in St. Paul and 4K in LA.



Warren might be deserving of the saying (I have the tote) "nevertheless she persisted."
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:19 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Dems have been complacent, not aggressive enough, and even defeatist. You can see it here: the tone is "we can't do ****, we're doomed, it will never work, voters are idiots".
That doesn't answer the questions as to why.

There's probably more than one reason. As I see it, one big factor is the strong interpenetration of money and politics in the US. Lobbies buy votes and hearts, the sodding Koch brothers and Murdoch, the high cost of campaigning that prevents regular folks from doing politics, most people in congress are rich and rich people tend to be conservative. These are only a few of the sort of systemic biases introduced by big money in politics. And they affect the Dems, too. I suppose we agree on that.

Another important reason is this sense of American exceptionalism, which prevents many US thinkers and politicians, including centrist Dems, from learning out of the experience of other nations. Eg on public health insurance schemes that have worked well in many industrialized nations, you can detail to an American the examples of Germany, France or Canada to show that a public option has many advantages until you're blue in the face, he won't really pay attention if he isn't already for it, otherwise it would hurt his national self-esteem. Or he would say: "Nice but it can't happen in the US for x y and z".

Another example of the same exceptionalist thinking is how many Americans are (wrongly IMO) convinced that a fascist dictatorship cannot arise in the US as it did eg in Italy or Germany in the past century. Obama, an intelligent man, could not envisage the election of a racist buffon like Trump because he thought Americans were above that, and would obviously see through his BS. Even someone like Lash concerned about fascism sees it in entirely the wrong places (like Google or the NYT, for heavens sake... ) instead of focusing on the obvious: wars of choice à la Bush, or on the racism, rabid nationalism, fakenewism and anti-poor sadism of Trump and co.

In short, there's been little sense of urgency for some time now, and too much complacency in face of an increasingly money-driven political system, because there's no real fear of revolution or collapse. Everybody wants to be a winner at this seemingly eternal game; and no one wants to change the rules of the game, or believe it can be done.

Same applies to climate change, mutatis mutandis. The idea that the 'system' could collapse as a result of an ever warming world is not understood yet in Washington, by and large.

I'm sure there are many other reasons but these two -- money in politics and exceptionalist thinking -- strike me as important to explain this complacency of the Dems towards their political enemies.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:41 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
Hightor is right. There are all kinds of socialism.

Same **** sandwich, different name.

Quote:
Leninism for one is not at all the same as Marxism. State conterl of the means of production is totally differwnt from worker control of the means of production, for one thing.

It's still the same **** sandwich. Someone who started a business gets that business taken away from them, all of these systems move towards "Land Reform", taking away private owned land.

Quote:
The Constitution is totally silent on how the economy is structured and operates. Which pretty much means anything goes as far as it is concerned.

You are 100% wrong on this account. We live in a system of personal freedom, and that includes owning a business. Socialism would take that business away from the owner and hand it over to someone else, govt or workers. The Constitution's only purpose is to preserve personal liberty and property, everything Socialism is against.

Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:43 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Venezuela and Cuba can't be used as examples of systemic failure, because both are systematically sabotaged by our government.

So what you are saying is that Socialism can't exist without a strong capitilist system to make it work? Venezuela should have had no problems, they were one of the richest countries in South America for decades, socialism ruined that and now the people starve.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:45 am
@hightor,
Quote:
The Constitution only means what five members of the Supreme Court says it means at one particular time.

Wrong, the concept of personal liberty doesn't change, that is the concept of the Constitution.

Quote:
I don't know how future courts will rule and neither do you. There's nothing sacrosanct about your particular interpretation of the Constitution. You don't determine what is and what is not compatible with the document.

Personal Liberty has been a corner stone of Constitution since it was written. They can't be changed unless the SCOTUS doesn't believe in personal liberty any longer, if that's the case, then they aren't ruling on what the Constitution says, they are ruling on what they think it says.
0 Replies
 
 

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