Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2019 07:57 am
@georgeob1,
What are your characteristics of a "self-styled environmental organisation" versus a "(proper) environmental organisation"?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2019 09:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Some, not all, based on their repeated actions, appear to have goals and purposes that different from those they claim
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2019 11:01 am
@georgeob1,
I don't mind being "oned up" with solid facts. I presented an idea and you answered that it's been implemented already. I'm a-okay with that.

Quote:
My observation that they [environmentalists] only rarely include the welfare of humans in their calculations was based on repeated experience.

It depends. I consider myself an environmentalist, in that I care for these things enough that I often vote for green party candidates. And yet my concerns for the environment stem from my concerns for people, eg for my own kids.

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2019 01:34 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

[The Fukushima melt down did scare people quite a lot. It's important to realize that there is nowadays among the general public a lack of trust in experts, including of course nuclear energy experts. You can resent that all you want but it's a fact of modern life. Post truthism and all this crap.


I agree, however the mistrust you note for experts appears to be a good deal less for climate change advocates, zealous anti nukes and environmentalists than for others. Indeed this appears generally true for most catastrophic forecasts, particularly things not easily perceived or understood. The cause is likely to involve the human reactions to fear of uncontrollable events. No conspiracy here: just human nature at work.

IPCC forecasts for warming have been consistently far greater than has occurred, though the degree of errors has dropped since they began to include some rather obvious effects in their models ( such as accounting for the added CO2 absorbed by now faster growing green plants, and the greater absorption of CO2 by the oceans - as carbonic acid, later to form limestone and sink to the bottom). Still the bias remains consistently high (one would expect a reasonable, unbiased model to err on both sides of actual outcomes).

Our endangered species laws protect all species except human beings. In practical application this produces some truly laughable outcomes.

I believe the Danish commentator, Bjorn Lundberg has addressed this matter very well.
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2019 03:25 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Our endangered species laws protect all species except human beings.

Species become endangered due to human activity — the law recognizes this and tries to mitigate further harm to threatened populations. Humans, from the dawn of civilization, have crafted many laws to protect human welfare and don't need to be covered by the Endangered Species Act. Regulations in the workplace, food and drug laws, and environmental laws all serve to protect human beings.
coldjoint
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2019 05:40 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Some, not all, based on their repeated actions, appear to have goals and purposes that different from those they claim

You mean like the carbon tax and redistribution of wealth is their agenda? Lowering the standard of living around the world and people losing the ability to do anything about it. Sound like a plan?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 12:19 am
@georgeob1,
You display the same level of distrust for specialists and experts when you doubt or ridicule Climate Change. It's a form of contempt for intelligence. Such denial is also doing grievious harm to all humans on the planet. So you are far worse an anti-human ideologue than anyone you criticise. You don't give a flting rat's ass for other people.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 12:40 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Species become endangered due to human activity — the law recognizes this and tries to mitigate further harm to threatened populations. Humans, from the dawn of civilization, have crafted many laws to protect human welfare and don't need to be covered by the Endangered Species Act. Regulations in the workplace, food and drug laws, and environmental laws all serve to protect human beings.

In actual cases the usually unstated assumption of environmentalists is that it is only human activity that is behind any apparent reduction in the population any species or even hard to distinguish sub species. However the fact is that evolution continues and, particularly in the case of sub species, more successfully adaptable sub species are more or less continuously replacing their competitors. This proved to be the case with the Spotted Owl in the Pacific Northwest where timber harvesting was stopped to protect it from competition with the, also native Brown owl (Very hard to tell the two apart in a photo). Over a decade after the cessation the relative decline in spotted Owl population there continues while that of the Brown Owl and Owls generally rises.

The welfare (or property rights) of the property owners, timber harvesters and users of wood products,wasn't, by law, a consideration in the earlier decision to cease timber harvesting.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 02:36 am
Dems, Please Don’t Drive Me Away

The dynamic pulling the party leftward

Quote:
According to a recent Gallup poll, 35 percent of Americans call themselves conservative, 35 percent call themselves moderate and 26 percent call themselves liberal. The candidates at the debates this week fall mostly within the 26 percent. The party seems to think it can win without any of the 35 percent of us in the moderate camp, the ones who actually delivered the 2018 midterm win.

The progressive narrative is dominating in part because progressives these days have a direct and forceful story to tell and no interest in compromising it. It’s dominating because no moderate wants to bear the brunt of progressive fury by opposing it.

It’s also dominating because the driving dynamic in this campaign right now is not who can knock off Joe Biden, the more moderate front-runner. It’s who can survive the intense struggle between Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and others to be the surviving left-wing alternative. All the energy and competition is on the progressive side. Biden tries to bob and weave above it all while the whole debate pulls sharply leftward.

The party is moving toward all sorts of positions that drive away moderates and make it more likely the nominee will be unelectable. And it’s doing it without too much dissent.

First, there is health care. When Warren and Kamala Harris raised their hands and said that they would eliminate employer-based health insurance, they made the most important gesture of the campaign so far. Over 70 percent of Americans with insurance through their employers are satisfied with their health plan. Warren, Harris and Sanders would take that away.

According to a Hill-HarrisX survey, only 13 percent of Americans say they would prefer a health insurance system with no private plans. Warren and Sanders pin themselves, and perhaps the Democratic Party, to a 13 percent policy idea. Trump is smiling.

Second, there is the economy. All of the Democrats seem to have decided to run a Trump-style American carnage campaign. The economy is completely broken. It only benefits a tiny sliver. Yet in a CNN poll, 71 percent of Americans say that the economy is very or somewhat good. We’re in the longest recovery in American history and the benefits are finally beginning to flow to those who need them most. Overall wages are rising by 3.5 percent, and wages for those in the lowest pay quartile are rising by well over 4 percent, the highest of all groups.

Democrats have caught the catastrophizing virus that inflicts the Trumpian right. They take a good point — that capitalism needs to be reformed to reduce inequality — and they radicalize it so one gets the impression they want to undermine capitalism altogether.

Third, Democrats are wandering into dangerous territory on immigration. They properly trumpet the glories immigrants bring to this country. But the candidates can’t let anybody get to the left of them on this issue. So now you’ve got a lot of candidates who sound operationally open borders. Progressive parties all over the world are getting decimated because they have fallen into this pattern.

Fourth, Democrats are trying to start a populist v. populist campaign against Trump, which is a fight they cannot win. Democratic populists talk as if the only elite in America is big business, big pharma — the top 1 percent. This allows them to sound populist without actually going after their donor bases — the highly educated affluent people along the coasts.

But the big divide in America is not between the top 1 percent and the bottom 99. It’s between the top 20 percent and the rest. These are the highly educated Americans who are pulling away from everybody else and who have built zoning restrictions and meritocratic barriers to make sure outsiders can’t catch up.

If Democrats run a populist campaign against the business elite, Trump will run a broader populist campaign against the entire educated elite. His populism is more compelling to people who respond to such things. After all, he is actually despised by the American elite, unlike the Democrats.

Finally, Democrats aren’t making the most compelling moral case against Donald Trump. They are good at pointing to Trump’s cruelties, especially toward immigrants. They are good at describing the ways he is homophobic and racist. But the rest of the moral case against Trump means hitting him from the right as well as the left.

A decent society rests on a bed of manners, habits, traditions and institutions. Trump is a disrupter. He rips to shreds the codes of politeness, decency, honesty and fidelity, and so renders society a savage world of dog eat dog. Democrats spend very little time making this case because defending tradition, manners and civility sometimes cuts against the modern progressive temper.

The debates illustrate the dilemma for moderate Democrats. If they take on progressives they get squashed by the passionate intensity of the left. If they don’t, the party moves so far left that it can’t win in the fall.

Right now we’ve got two parties trying to make moderates homeless.

nyt/brooks
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 03:46 am
@hightor,
That could have been written by Max d'Ancona...

Okay so "moderates" are lacking a candidate with some fire in his belly. The best way to remedy this is to find a moderate candidate with some fire in his belly, not to whine about "progressive" candidates being oh-so-vocal... The "moderates" aren't entitled to anything; they need to put up a fight, just like anybody else.
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 03:56 am
@Olivier5,
Brooks is a well-known "almost-conservative" and his take on the race was predictable. But I would like to see his points answered. How is taking away people's private insurance going to play? How are they going to explain what's wrong with the apparently strong economy? Immigration reform — sorry, "open borders" is a stupid idea. Any Dem who tries to out-populist Trump is going to look like the worst sort of rabble-rouser.

Quote:
The debates illustrate the dilemma for moderate Democrats. If they take on progressives they get squashed by the passionate intensity of the left. If they don’t, the party moves so far left that it can’t win in the fall.


This reflects the structural problem in how we choose our candidates, but I don't know how it can be solved.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 04:31 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Any Dem who tries to out-populist Trump is going to look like the worst sort of rabble-rouser.

I seriously doubt this. In fact I suspect the opposite is true, i.e. any Dem who tries to stick to facts and statistics in a debate with Trump will come across as a heartless technocrat. The general election will not be not a fight for people's brain, but for their heart.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 05:18 am
The S Word, the F Word and the Election

Guess which party is really un-American.

Quote:
What did you think of the bunch of socialists you just saw debating on stage?

Wait, you may protest, you didn’t see any socialists up there. And you’d be right. The Democratic Party has clearly moved left in recent years, but none of the presidential candidates are anything close to being actual socialists — no, not even Bernie Sanders, whose embrace of the label is really more about branding (“I’m anti-establishment!”) than substance.

Nobody in these debates wants government ownership of the means of production, which is what socialism used to mean. Most of the candidates are, instead, what Europeans would call “social democrats”: advocates of a private-sector-driven economy, but with a stronger social safety net, enhanced bargaining power for workers and tighter regulation of corporate malfeasance. They want America to be more like Denmark, not more like Venezuela.

Leading Republicans, however, routinely describe Democrats, even those on the right of their party, as socialists. Indeed, all indications are that denunciations of Democrats’ “socialist” agenda will be front and center in the general election campaign. And everyone in the news media accepts this as the normal state of affairs.

Which goes to show the extent to which Republican extremism has been accepted simply as a fact of life, barely worth mentioning.

To see what I mean, imagine the media firestorm, the screams about lost civility, we’d experience if any prominent Democrat described Republicans as a party of fascists, let alone if Democrats made that claim the centerpiece of their national campaign. And such an accusation would indeed be somewhat over the top — but it would be a lot closer to the truth than calling Democrats socialists.

The other day The Times published an Op-Ed that used analysis of party platforms to place U.S. political parties on a left-right spectrum along with their counterparts abroad. The study found that the G.O.P. is far to the right of mainstream European conservative parties. It’s even to the right of anti-immigrant parties like Britain’s UKIP and France’s National Rally. Basically, if we saw something like America’s Republicans in another country, we’d classify them as white nationalist extremists.

True, this is just one study. But it matches up with lots of other evidence. Political scientists who use congressional votes to track ideology find that Republicans have moved drastically to the right over the past four decades, to the point where they are now more conservative than they were at the height of the Gilded Age.

Or just compare the G.O.P., point by point, with parties almost everyone would classify as right-wing authoritarians — parties like Hungary’s Fidesz, which has preserved some of the forms of democracy but has effectively created a permanent one-party state.

Fidesz has cemented its power by politicizing the judiciary, creating rigged election rules, suppressing opposition media and using the power of the state to reward the party’s cronies while punishing businesses that don’t toe the line. Does any of this sound like something that can’t happen here? In fact, does any of it sound like something that isn’t already happening here, and which Republicans will do much more of if they get the chance?

One might even argue that the G.O.P. stands out among the West’s white nationalist parties for its exceptional willingness to crash right through the guardrails of democracy. Extreme gerrymandering, naked voter suppression and stripping power from offices the other party manages to win all the same — these practices seem if anything more prevalent here than in the failing democracies of Eastern Europe.

Oh, and isn’t it remarkable how blasé we’ve become about threats of legal persecution and/or physical violence against anyone who criticizes a Republican president?

So it’s really something to see Republicans trying to tar Democrats as un-American socialists. If they want to see a party that really has broken with fundamental American values, they should look in the mirror.

But that won’t happen, of course. Whoever the Democrats nominate — even if it’s Joe Biden — Republicans will paint him or her as the second coming of Hugo Chávez. The only question is whether it will work.

It might not, or at least not as well as in the past. By spending decades calling everything that might improve Americans’ lives “socialist,” Republicans have squandered much of the accusation’s force. And Donald Trump, who was installed in office with Russian help and clearly prefers foreign dictators to democratic allies, is probably less able to play the “Democrats are unpatriotic” card than previous Republican presidents.

Still, a lot will depend on how the news media handle dishonest attacks. Will we keep seeing headlines that repeat false claims (“Trump Says Democrats Will Ban Hamburgers”), with the information that the claim is false buried deep inside the article? Will we get coverage of actual policy proposals, as opposed to horse-race analysis that only asks how those proposals seem to be playing?

I guess we’ll soon find out.

nyt/krugman
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 06:03 am
Just made my first campaign contribution of this election. Kamala Harris.
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 06:52 am
@snood,
Yeah, she sounded good. While I think her criticism of Biden was a bit harsh it made me think how effective she could be against Trump. It was a debate, after all, and Joe was the target. Sanders seemed sort of lackluster, but I see he got positive comments on his hair. I'm watching Bennett, too.
snood
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 06:53 pm
@hightor,
Harsh? True and necessary. The primaries are the time for the Dem candidates to savage each other. The survivor will have already defended themselves from the worst oppo research available before they face the orange wretch.
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 07:02 pm
@snood,
Quote:
The survivor will have already defended themselves from the worst oppo research available before they face the orange wretch.

What country do you think they will buy the research from? Killary can get them a discount.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2019 10:35 pm
@hightor,
I didn't find Harris's remarks to Biden as harsh. For me it was timely and necessary and the reaction of Biden showed me that he really has a disconnect. He may be middle of the road politically but he needs to step up and address things from his past. Address them and then tell how he has grown and changed. Too often, he fails.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2019 07:13 am
A Wretched Start for Democrats

The party seems interested in helping everyone except the voters it needs.

Quote:
Amigos demócratas,

Si ustedes siguen así, van a perder las elecciones. Y lo merecerán.

Translation for the linguistically benighted: “Democratic friends, if you go on like this, you’re going to lose the elections. And you’ll deserve it.”

In this week’s Democratic debates, it wasn’t just individual candidates who presented themselves to the public. It was also the party itself. What conclusions should ordinary people draw about what Democrats stand for, other than a thunderous repudiation of Donald Trump, and how they see America, other than as a land of unscrupulous profiteers and hapless victims?

Here’s what: a party that makes too many Americans feel like strangers in their own country. A party that puts more of its faith, and invests most of its efforts, in them instead of us.

They speak Spanish. We don’t. They are not U.S. citizens or legal residents. We are. They broke the rules to get into this country. We didn’t. They pay few or no taxes. We already pay most of those taxes. They willingly got themselves into debt. We’re asked to write it off. They don’t pay the premiums for private health insurance. We’re supposed to give up ours in exchange for some V.A.-type nightmare. They didn’t start enterprises that create employment and drive innovation. We’re expected to join the candidates in demonizing the job-creators, breaking up their businesses and taxing them to the hilt.

That was the broad gist of the Democratic message, in which the only honorable exceptions, like Maryland’s John Delaney and Colorado’s John Hickenlooper, came across as square dancers at a rave.

On closer inspection, the message got even worse.

Promising access to health insurance for north of 11 million undocumented immigrants at a time when there’s a migration crisis at the southern border? Every candidate at Thursday’s debate raised a hand for that one, in what was surely the evening’s best moment for the Trump campaign.

Calling for the decriminalization of border crossings (while opposing a wall)? That was a major theme of Wednesday’s debate, underlining the Republican contention that Democrats are a party of open borders, limitless amnesty and, in time, the Third World-ization of America.

Switching to Spanish? Memo to Beto O’Rourke and Cory Booker: If you can’t speak the language without a heavy American accent, don’t bother. It just reminds those of us who can that the only thing worse than an obnoxious gringo is a pandering one.

Eliminating private health insurance, an industry that employs more than 500,000 workers and insures 150 million? Elizabeth Warren, Bill de Blasio, Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris support it (though the California senator later recanted the position). Since Democrats are already committed to destroying the coal industry and seem inclined to turn Silicon Valley into a regulated utility, it’s worth asking: Just how much of the private economy are they even willing to keep?

And then there are the costs that Democrats want to impose on the country. Warren, for instance, favors universal child care (estimated cost, $70 billion a year), Medicare-For-All ($2.8 trillion to $3.2 trillion annually), student-debt cancellation and universal free college ($125 billion annually), and a comprehensive climate action plan ($2 trillion, including $100 billion in aid to poor countries), along with a raft of smaller giveaways, like debt relief for Puerto Rico.

As Everett Dirksen might have said: A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money. Someone will have to pay for all this, and it won’t just be the very rich making between seven and 10 figures a year. It will be you.

Throughout the debates, I kept wondering if any of the leading candidates would speak to Americans beyond the Democratic base. But Joe Biden seemed too feeble, oratorically and intellectually, to buck the self-defeating trend. Pete Buttigieg was, as always, fluent, knowledgeable and sincere. But his big moment — a mea culpa for a racially charged policing incident in South Bend — felt like another well-mannered white guy desperate to put his wokeness on display.

Harris, meanwhile, came across as Barack Obama in reverse, especially with her scurrilous attack on Biden for the sin of having had a functional political relationship with two former segregationist senators in the 1970s. This was portrayed as a clever debate move but it will come to haunt her.

Obama’s political genius was to emphasize what Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt, authors of ‘The Coddling of the American Mind,” have called “common-humanity identity politics”— he made you feel comfortable no matter the color of your skin. Harris’s approach, by contrast, is “common-enemy identity politics.” Making white Americans feel racially on trial for views they may have held in the past on crime, busing and similar subjects is not going to help the Democrats.

None of this means that Democrats can’t win in 2020. The economy could take a bad turn. Or Trump could outdo himself in loathsomeness. But the Democratic Party we saw this week did even less to appeal beyond its base than the president. And at least his message is that he’s on their — make that our — side.

nyt/stephens
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2019 08:44 am
@hightor,
Interesting article. Thanks.

The once radical ideas put forward by Bernie Sanders have been taken up and magnified by a new cohort of Democrat leaders, and together appear to have been endorsed by most of the new wave of Democrat candidates for the Presidency. Perhaps fearful of the consequences with a majority of voters, Democrat Party leaders, quietly and generally without public endorsement, pushed for a Biden candidacy. The satisfaction and confidence that followed Biden's, well-accepted announcement appears to have been shattered.

The usual themes of the early debates, particularly those involving ao many candidates, are a clash of new policy proposals and a general struggle to attain prominence. In fact we saw very little in the way of conflicting policy proposals: all appear to have endorsed the new radicalism. However there was indeed a struggle for prominence and Biden was the main casualty. I could not help but sympathize with Joe Biden at the mean spirited and (in the case of Harris, rather contrived) assaults, but the fact is he handled it poorly.

I was reminded of some lines from W.B. Yeats' poem, "The Second Coming" also written in a period of such political turbulence;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity


What now? Biden may recover, but I believe that prospect is far from certain. The other candidates appear to be the principal consumers of their own propaganda in so enthusiastically and uncritically pushing the new radical agenda. Just two of them raised any question or qualifications about the merits of elements in it - not a good sign in a campaign supposedly about issues.

In many ways the best things Trump has going for him include the characters of his opponents,
0 Replies
 
 

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