neptuneblue
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 09:23 am
I don't do gibberish.

livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 09:28 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

‘Socialism’ has been the boogeyman in this country since McCarthyism—even though the US has several popular, helpful policies taken from the socialist ethos. FDR saved millions of people in our country by adopting pronounced ‘socialist’ policies.

Perpetuating this fallacious fear is expected of well-meaning (however ignorant) people who have been groomed by establishment political parties to really believe socialist policies will murder America (ironic, because capitalism IS LITERALLY KILLING AMERICANS), but intelligent people in politics, who front that bogus **** are using antiquated propaganda for their own nefarious self-interests.

I consider Warren to be intelligent. And she is guilty.

Socialism is capitalism in an augmented form. When you say that capitalism is "literally killing Americans," it is worse because of socialism, to the extent that socialism invigorates capitalism with additional demand/spending.

Take a simple example of meat. Economic analysis often shows that meat-consumption increases as capitalism generates more disposable income for people who lacked it before. Some would say this is a testament to the greatness of capitalism, and that social policies designed to expand and regulate capitalism so that it continues to fund more disposable income for everyone will only make things better.

But now look at the underlying sustainability of increasing per-capita meat-consumption and thus overall animal agriculture and slaughter: raising and slaughtering animals uses more resources and water than raising other forms of protein. Animals eat soy, corn, etc. which can be eaten by humans. Basically when you raise animals for meat, it's like you're feeding humans, which you then slaughter so that other humans can eat them. That is not a moral analogy but an example to show that the corn and soy fed to livestock could be fed directly to humans, which would mean feeding more humans with less resources and waste.

So what socialism does is it takes the power capitalism provides to the rich to essentially waste resources for their own pleasure and indulgence and extends and expands that power to more people. So now, instead of a relatively small class of wealthy capitalists consuming meat regularly and wasting agricultural resources that could be used to feed more people more efficiently, you have a growing middle-class doing it and wasting even more per capita.

So if the solution to the problems of resource waste are not solvable by using socialism to grow capitalism in a way that extends and expands purchasing power for more people, then what is the solution? Is there one? Basically, the solution is for people to accept economic inequality first; and second to solve economic problems on an industry-by-industry basis by looking at where real needs are not being met and how to address these needs in a way that doesn't require big broad socialist measures, and certainly in a way that doesn't fight inequality.

So, for example, lets say that some people can't afford both a car to drive and a place to live. Is the solution to demand more income so they can afford both? If they get it, then they will all drive and the infrastructure costs and costs to society and the environment would be much worse than if they would just use transit and/or ride bicycles. So the solution is to make transit better and/or encourage bike riding and improve bike/pedestrian infrastructure; not for everyone to make enough money to drive.

The transportation/infrastructure issue is probably the most important one we face on many levels, but it is not the only one. There are many solutions for economic problems that don't require socialist redistribution and closing of the inequality gaps, at least not in any major way. In fact, part of the reason many solutions are ignored or never considered is because they would actually be more cost-efficient than what's going on currently, and that would mean businesses losing revenue. So it is really businesses that benefit most from socialism, i.e. because the government subsidizes their demand so they can make more money, which they justify by claiming it helps them produce more jobs, when really what it does is stimulate more waste at every level.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 09:39 am
@neptuneblue,
Hahaha! I can point to 20 or so posts of yours that make you a liar! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 09:45 am
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/robert-reich-ignore-the-socialism-scaremongering/

The word socialism is being used to scare you.


I keep hearing a lot about “socialism” these days, mainly from Donald Trump and Fox News, trying to scare Americans about initiatives like Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, universal child care, free public higher education, and higher taxes on the super-wealthy to pay for these.

Well, I’m here to ask you to ignore the scaremongering.

First, these initiatives are overwhelmingly supported by most Americans.

Second, for the last 85 years, conservative Republicans have been yelling “socialism” at every initiative designed to help most Americans.


It was the scare word used by the Liberty League, in 1935 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed Social Security.

In 1952, President Harry Truman noted that “Socialism is the epithet they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years….”

Truman went on to say, “Socialism is what they called public power … social security … bank deposit insurance … free and independent labor organizations … anything that helps all the people. Truman concluded by noting “When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan ‘Down With Socialism’ … what he really means is, ‘Down with Progress.’ ”

Third, if we don’t want to live in a survival-of-the-fittest society in which only the richest and most powerful can endure, government has to do three basic things: regulate corporations, provide social insurance against unforeseen hardships, and support public investments such as schools and public transportation.

All of these require that we pool our resources for the common good.

Regardless of whether this is called democratic socialism or enlightened capitalism, all are necessary for a decent society.

Fourth and finally, America spends very little on social programs compared to other industrialized nations. As a result, almost 30 million Americans still lack health insurance, nearly 51 million households can’t afford basic monthly expenses including housing, food, child care, and transportation. And we’re the only industrialized nation without paid family leave.

Our infrastructure is literally crumbling, our classrooms are overcrowded and our teachers are paid far less than workers in the private sector with comparable education.

We can and must do more.

So don’t let them scare you with words like “socialism.” These policies are just common sense.
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 10:26 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/robert-reich-ignore-the-socialism-scaremongering/

The word socialism is being used to scare you.


I keep hearing a lot about “socialism” these days, mainly from Donald Trump and Fox News, trying to scare Americans about initiatives like Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, universal child care, free public higher education, and higher taxes on the super-wealthy to pay for these.

Well, I’m here to ask you to ignore the scaremongering.

First, these initiatives are overwhelmingly supported by most Americans.

Second, for the last 85 years, conservative Republicans have been yelling “socialism” at every initiative designed to help most Americans.


It was the scare word used by the Liberty League, in 1935 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed Social Security.

In 1952, President Harry Truman noted that “Socialism is the epithet they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years….”

Truman went on to say, “Socialism is what they called public power … social security … bank deposit insurance … free and independent labor organizations … anything that helps all the people. Truman concluded by noting “When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan ‘Down With Socialism’ … what he really means is, ‘Down with Progress.’ ”

Third, if we don’t want to live in a survival-of-the-fittest society in which only the richest and most powerful can endure, government has to do three basic things: regulate corporations, provide social insurance against unforeseen hardships, and support public investments such as schools and public transportation.

All of these require that we pool our resources for the common good.

Regardless of whether this is called democratic socialism or enlightened capitalism, all are necessary for a decent society.

Fourth and finally, America spends very little on social programs compared to other industrialized nations. As a result, almost 30 million Americans still lack health insurance, nearly 51 million households can’t afford basic monthly expenses including housing, food, child care, and transportation. And we’re the only industrialized nation without paid family leave.

Our infrastructure is literally crumbling, our classrooms are overcrowded and our teachers are paid far less than workers in the private sector with comparable education.

We can and must do more.

So don’t let them scare you with words like “socialism.” These policies are just common sense.

And what do you think of all the economic and resource waste that happens as a result of automotive-consumerism? Do you think it's good for the planet to fund all these socialist programs and create all sorts of good-paying jobs without first reforming how people live and spend their money? How they get around and what kind of infrastructure they use? How land is used and developed?

Would you rather boost the economy and sort out the environmental problems later? Well, that's what the Obama administration did and look what happened: once the money started circulating, no one wants to change their business model because it's bring in money.

It's that simple, really. As long as Dems keep stimulating the economy with social spending, no one is going to want to change anything because they just want to keep making money doing what they are good at.

If you want real changes to the automotive-consumer economic culture that has been causing environmental/climate sustainability problems for about the last century or so, you have to allow the economy to settle down and people have to accept that they can't all drive cars and buy all this stuff and do these things that are causing environmental harm and sprawling development everywhere.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 10:47 am
@livinglava,
I used to read your posts when you first arrived, but each time, I’ve found them to begin with some peripheral or unrelated premise which then meanders off into some tortured oblivion I choose not to visit.

I don’t take offense, but your quoting me and then that thing you do next takes up a lot of space. I’m thinking of others as well as myself. Perhaps you might find someone to address who may respond.

🙂
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 10:50 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I used to read your posts when you first arrived, but each time, I’ve found them to begin with some peripheral or unrelated premise which then meanders off into some tortured oblivion I choose not to visit.

I don’t take offense, but your quoting me and then that thing you do next takes up a lot of space. I’m thinking of others as well as myself. Perhaps you might find someone to address who may respond.

🙂

I don't know why you think my response is "peripheral" or "unrelated."

I used to believe in socialism, until I analyzed and saw how it invigorated capitalism and thus the social and environmental/sustainability problems that come with it.

It's a trick solution; one that pretends to solve the problems of capitalism by strengthening capitalism with capitalism's own method, i.e. reinvestment of monetary returns.

Why don't you want to consider this?
lmur
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 02:44 pm
@livinglava,
It strikes me that you may have no idealogical issue with the elimination of oligarchical hegemony but rather the replacement mechanisms. Open to correction, obviously.
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2019 04:19 pm
@lmur,
lmur wrote:

It strikes me that you may have no idealogical issue with the elimination of oligarchical hegemony but rather the replacement mechanisms. Open to correction, obviously.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but the issue is more simple and concrete than ideology.

It is about what happens when you use government spending to circulate money through an automotive-consumerist economy like that in the US, where economies the world over bank on selling cars and products so they can take the money back home and spend it where the cost of living is lower because everyone doesn't drive and buy as much as in the US.

It is just not smart to stimulate such an economy with more government spending until you allowed the consumer culture to cool/calm to a more modest level. Years ago, most people took buses or other transit. Rosa Parks made her stand (it was a sit, actually) in a bus where both black and white people rode the bus.

Since Rosa Parks' time, the number of motor-vehicles per capita has risen, the amount of driving infrastructure has grown, cities have sprawled out destroying ecological land and land that could be used for local agriculture.

Consumerism has also grown. The Panama Canal has been widened to allow huge container ships through. Climate sustainability has become a huge problem.

Overall, it is clear that people in the US and everywhere should be reforming our lifestyle habits to use and waste less, but the automotive-consumer lifestyle habits of US culture are so normalized by the media and by people's resistance to change that they will go on living that way as long as the money is there to do so. In fact, they even borrow money when the money's not there, so increasing government spending is such a bad thing because all it does is encourage the cycles of borrowing and spending that prevent the economy from changing for the better.

What we really need is austerity, not socialism, but since the public is so resistant to austerity, the closest we can get is to reduce government spending and allow the economy to bifurcate into a greater gap between rich and poor, so at least the middle-class will be transitioning to spending levels that are more austere, giving up driving for transit, re-using things and otherwise making them last longer, and otherwise creating more sustainability with their smaller economic footprints.

If such reforms are occurring and there are problems with food distribution or basic shelter, warm clothes, etc. then government could do something minimal to help people get these basic needs filled, but currently you have the problem that people will supplement public assistance with other forms of income that allow them to drive instead of taking transit and otherwise spend at levels that block the austerity reforms that are needed to restore environmental/climate sustainability.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2019 03:07 pm
Quote:
Cognitive Dissonance: The Psychological Phenomenon that Explains Why Intellectuals Can’t Stop Believing Socialism Works

Quote:
“According to cognitive dissonance theory, first developed by Leon Festinger in the 1950s, people seek to avoid the internal discomfort that arises when their beliefs, attitudes or behavior come into conflict with each other or with new information. In other words, it doesn’t feel good to do something you don’t value or that contradicts your deeply held convictions. To deal with this kind of discomfort, people sometimes attempt to rationalize their beliefs and behavior.

In a classic study, Festinger and colleagues observed a small doomsday cult in Chicago who were waiting for a UFO to save them from impending massive destruction of Earth. When the prophecy didn’t come true, instead of rejecting their original belief, members of the sect came to believe that the God of Earth changed plans and no longer wanted to destroy the planet.

Cult members so closely identified with the idea that a UFO was coming to rescue them that they couldn’t just let the idea go when it was proven wrong. Rather than give up on the original belief, they preferred to lessen the cognitive dissonance they were experiencing internally.”

http://intellectualtakeout.org/article/cognitive-dissonance-psychological-phenomenon-explains-why-intellectuals-cant-stop-believing
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2019 12:47 am
@lmur,
Lava is a die-hard conservative.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2019 06:21 am

Seth Moulton

@sethmoulton
Bravo to @JoeBiden for doing the right thing and reversing his longstanding support for the Hyde Amendment. It takes courage to admit when you're wrong, especially when those decisions affect millions of people.

Now do the Iraq War.

6,018
7:31 AM - Jun 7, 2019
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2019 06:38 am
I look for strategic (visionary) skills in the White House and tactical skills in the House/Senate. My thought on Warren is that we need her in the Senate where people actually make laws rather than in the White House as I see her as mostly tactical. That's not to discount her visionary appeal, it is definitely there, but she's way tactical. Not too many candidates are striking me on the visionary scale these days. Sanders is there, but too many negatives. Yang maybe but a little to out of the mainstream. Still looking.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2019 06:39 am
@Lash,
I'm not persuaded that "courage" is an accurate label for the real motivation here. Supine conformity with the prejudices of the emerging left wing zealots in the Democrat party is likely a more accurate description for the "sudden change" to long held views on the matter.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2019 06:52 am
@georgeob1,
You didn’t hear the sarcasm in Moulton’s comment.

The ‘left wing’ of the D party is just trying to return liberal policies to what used to be a liberal Democrat party.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2019 01:44 pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8qNYI7XoAA-jbC?format=jpg&name=900x900
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2019 04:33 am
@engineer,
Searching for perfection is the fastest road to disapointment.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2019 01:05 pm
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/victim-compensation-fund-jon-stewart-lashes-out-at-house-hearing-on-911-responders-bill-you-should-be-ashamed-of/

Jon Stewart breaks into tears, yelling at Congress.
I wish he’d run for office. Just one or two terms would help.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2019 08:34 pm
http://www.usmessageboard.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F45a5383e94ad09b49162b80c95c5295e%2Ftumblr_psjqxl7a5M1wob7pj_540.jpg&hash=915c4f6eb2382c7d4609445a0a934e39
This should make you cry too.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2019 09:32 pm
@coldjoint,
Oh, it causes me to weep copious amounts of tears (provided that I'm slicing onions at the time of viewing).
 

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