Progressives (Liberals)

@oralloy,

Quote:

I am not suggesting that anyone should be punished for a crime that they didn't do.

Well’ that’s what I am talking about. Trump is a pathological liar (and you are just like him, except you also lie to yourself). If elected a second term, he will keep stacking judges until he can unleash them on his political opponents.

And I bet you that when that happens, when Bernie and Hillary are both in jail, the Edgars and the Snoods of this world will keep arguing whether it was Bernie’s or Hillary’s fault that Trump got in the White House.

Quote:

As President he has absolute control over the executive branch.

There’s this deep state thing, though.

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@Lash,

He did what was right for America. Too bad you were too much of a hater to understand that.

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@nimh,

One cannot please a Bernie hater.

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@Olivier5,

The Clinton machine cheated my candidate, in effect stealing the hard-earned money I sent to him. The Clinton machine was far too powerful in this country and poison in the system. I’m eternally grateful its legs were cut off in that election.

Trump was a nobody outsider. He doesn’t have an extensive web of influence that shields him from criticism or accountability like the Clintons have.

There’s a good reason for the hate. They’ve had leading roles in getting this country in the disgusting mess it’s in.

If Dems aren’t completely retarded, they’ll elect the overwhelmingly popular front runner, and it will be worth this short smelly trump detour.

That repudiation of Hillary Clinton has jerked this country left. Bernie’s
policies will jerk us out of this psychotic dystopian fascism we’re sinking into, reinvigorate a disappearing middle class and save people from early death because healthcare is unattainable for them.

I did the right thing and I’d do it again.

Look at the result it has had on American politics! AOC could never have risen without the burgeoning influence of Bernie Sanders. The fresh wave of female progressives was because of influence from the left. Hillary did everything she could to squash it.

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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/will-2020-bring-realignment-left/586624/

Is America poised for another major realignment?

(nods enthusiastically)

Hard to choose an excerpt—this is a great piece:

No one can know whether 2020 will bring the realignment that some people on the left expect. In the years since 2008 many things have changed, including three big ones. First is the lingering hangover of the Great Recession, with increased economic divisions, leaving Democratic voters impatient with the kind of incremental reforms that Hillary Clinton campaigned on in 2016 and hungry for more ambitious policies. A second is the coming to political age of Millennials—the most powerful generation since the Boomers, and far more left-wing than their elders. The third is Donald Trump.

—————
Another:

Since getting elected, Trump—by being true to himself every minute of his presidency—has pushed educated women, suburban voters, and even a small percentage of his white working-class base toward the Democratic Party. His hateful rhetoric and character are making Americans—white Democrats in particular—more rather than less liberal on issues of immigration, religion, and race. Last November, nonwhite voters made up a record 28 percent of the midterm electorate, and 38 percent of young voters. At the same time, the Republican Party has built its ramparts around the diminishing ground inhabited by older, whiter, more rural, less educated Americans. These are the kind of changes that could bring a new Democratic coalition to power for years to come.

———————
A must read.

1 Reply

@Lash,

Quote:

Trump was a nobody outsider. He doesn’t have an extensive web of influence that shields him from criticism or accountability like the Clintons have.

Two years ago you were convinced he would be impeached in no time... Since then he has asserted his authority on the Republican Party, which was not a given at start but now they all eat in his palm. He has promoted his yes-men at all levels of the party, survived an investigation into Russian manipulation of the presidential election, nominated one SC judge (more to come) and countless lower-level judges, revived the American extreme right, given them hope and platforms to share their ideology further.

Underestimating the damage that this guy can do to the US democracy is folly. But of course, it's always like that. When they elected Hitler, many Germans found that he was a tad too intolerant, particularly of the Jews, but aside that he would probably be okay...

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@Lash,

Quote:

But don’t count on it. There are still a lot of people living back in that vast obscurity beyond the city, where the red fields of the republic roll on under the night. Since progressives, especially younger ones, and especially the hyperpoliticized partisans on Twitter, rarely talk to people who don’t think like them, they stop believing that such people still exist, at least not in meaningful numbers—sooner or later they’ll have to die out. And yet, year after year, those nearly extinct Americans keep showing up to vote, and often win.

1 Reply

@nimh,

Quote:

Democratic socialists now control one-tenth of the Chicago City Council

Ten per cent — in a big liberal bastion like Chicago? That doesn't seem all that amazing to me.

Quote:

Political observers and organizers should take these victories as a lesson: voters found that strong leftwing message appealing – and weren’t scared off by candidates who proudly called themselves “socialists”.

Again, this is Chicago. When this movement really needs to achieve success outside its current demographic and geographic bubble — big cities, college towns, non-whites, and the coasts. I see another big red map with splotches of blue here and there.

1 Reply

More on "realignment"?

TC posted this on another thread:

New Survey Shows Young People Are Staying Liberal and Conservatives Are Dying Off

nymag

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@hightor,

We could win against the ‘reds’; Trump wins if so-called ‘conservative Democrats’ keep voting for Republicans with Ds tacked on their names.

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Eric Swalwell is running. I'm losing track of all the candidates. Grabbing any attention at all is going to be very difficult for some. So far donations have been lower than previous elections for the same time period, donations are certainly going to be spread far and wide in the early going.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/8/18300245/eric-swalwell-president-2020-intelligence-committee

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@nimh,

nimh wrote:

snood wrote:
Olivier5 wrote:
Let’s not forget that Bernie himself supported Hillary against Trump.

Yes, it was support. Half hearted and late, but still support.

I mean, he campaigned for Hillary at 39 rallies in 13 states in just a day over two months. Don't think that qualifies as "half hearted".

You seem to forget that we actually lived through this. It was not that long ago. I didn’t imagine Sander’s reticence. In mid June 2016, weeks after Hillary had secured the nomination, Bernie was still kvetching that he couldn’t offer any full throated endorsement until the DNC adopted ALL of his policies into their platform. They had already accepted 80-90% of them, but there were just a couple of things like abandoning Obamacare in favor of national single payer healthcare that they wouldn’t. During this time, Bernie’s more rabid followers were taking the refusal to make it 100% Bernie’s platform as a declaration of war. Everyone can have there own opinions about what effect Bernie’s refusal to endorse during this time had, or his motivations. But please don’t insult my intelligence by trying to suggest the refusal didn’t happen.

And right now, Bernie’s more rabid, more foolish supporters are operating with the same MO - all Bernie or nothing. We can disagree about the motivations or effects, but don’t goddamn tell me that isn’t the attitude.

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@snood,

Quote:

Bernie’s more rabid, more foolish supporters are operating with the same MO - all Bernie or nothing.

Where this position is held as anything close to an absolute, it is guilty of precisely the same complaint lodged against electing Clinton - it is to demand a "coronation".

1 Reply

@hightor,

hightor wrote:

Ten per cent — in a big liberal bastion like Chicago? That doesn't seem all that amazing to me.

Well, it should, because it's the first time it happened in, what?, 80 years? 100 years?

We're talking about the US. Any kind of self-described socialism was dead for decades, even in the cities. In over four decades between 1960 and 2013, there was only one socialist mayor outside Vermont ever, and that was in a single neighbourhood with a population of one thousand.

Are socialists on the brink of taking over the country now? Of course not. Is this a strikingly new development? Yes. Small favours.

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When this movement really needs to achieve success outside its current demographic and geographic bubble — big cities, college towns, non-whites, and the coasts.

The days when socialists were riding high in the expanses of small-town America lie a hundred years behind us. They're having to start pretty much from scratch (and they'll make plenty of mistakes again too). But did you see the piece I posted about Iowa's flourishing DSA? Gotta start somewhere.

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@snood,

There's no pleasing a Bernie hater.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

There’s no reasoning with a know it all

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@mtracey

'Barr reiterates that Mueller is currently participating in the redaction process, and says the rationale for all redactions will be specifically explicated. Barr says the Report will be issued "within a week," consistent with what he said all along. Another blow to the truthers.'

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@snood,

snood wrote:

You seem to forget that we actually lived through this. It was not that long ago.

The thing with lived experiences is that everyone has their own, and their memories tend to clash rather colourfully. Same here.

Hence referring to something tangible, measurable like the number of rallies he did for Hillary. Once the primary was over, yes. He fought the primary race up through close to the convention. Hillary fought hers until way past it was clear to everyone else she would lose in 2008 too, and she fought dirtier than Bernie in 2016. Then, once the convention was done and the candidate had been nominated, both of them campaigned for them.

The only reason people hate on Bernie, and not on Hillary, for fighting their primaries til way past they rationally should have, and on the 15-20% of Bernie's primary voters who voted against Hillary but not the similar or higher number of Hillary's primary voters who voted against Obama, is because Obama still won and Hillary didn't. Seems to be some misdirection of anger involved in that one.

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@ggreenwald

'Eric Swalwell screeching about THE GRAVE RUSSIAN THREAT, making untrue claims, and predicting the cataclysmic outcomes of the Mueller investigation for the last 3 years almost make Rachel Maddow and Adam Schiff seem like centered, sober, honest and rational analysts.'

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@nimh,

nimh wrote:

The only reason people hate on Bernie, and not on Hillary, for fighting their primaries til way past they rationally should have, and on the 15-20% of Bernie's primary voters who voted against Hillary but not the similar or higher number of Hillary's primary voters who voted against Obama, is because Obama still won and Hillary didn't. Seems to be some misdirection of anger involved in that one.

That seems like a completely predictable, if not expected human response actually.

Why would a human being be expected to be upset about something 10 years later where the outcome worked out just fine (from their point of view)?

I mean, if I asked my wife to buy a lottery ticket with the numbers 6, 12, 72, 55, 61 and instead of my numbers she picked her own, but we ended up winning the lottery with her numbers, would it make sense for me to be upset about it? Of course not. But if my numbers had won the lottery and she didn't pick them, well, I may be a tad bit angry.

The outcome of a particular event DOES mean something to human beings. It may not be completely rational, but neither is humanity.

I've long railed against the apathetic non-voters who stayed home that election (and others). The only left-leaning-people I blame more are Stein voters.

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