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SOCIAL SECURITY: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 02:52 pm
What is it about conservatives and humor? Smile

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 02:52 pm
Just,
I got the joke. Was making one back. ;-)
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 02:53 pm
Thanks, Cyclo! I posted a link a while back, though, (on another SS thread) about those Galveston County workers who've been on a similar plan and they're doing great. Doubt all of them are members of Mensa Smile
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 02:53 pm
Hey,
The good news is when all those backwoods guys lose all their money they won't have to worry about a class action lawsuit because they won't be able to file one.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 02:54 pm
parados wrote:
Just,
I got the joke. Was making one back. ;-)


Duh! LOL!
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:01 pm
parados wrote:
Free,
I like the guarentee in option 2 that low wage earning couples are guarenteed 75% of joint benefits when one dies. I don't think they get that today. Not sure what base is for SS today. 150% of poverty? anyone know?


I think that right now it is actually below the poverty line but I will try to verify that.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:02 pm
Quote:
Thanks, Cyclo! I posted a link a while back, though, (on another SS thread) about those Galveston County workers who've been on a similar plan and they're doing great. Doubt all of them are members of Mensa


You gotta read through the thread; that's already been thoroughly discussed and debunked. But I'll relink for ya, just to show you that there seems to be a little dissent about how 'great' people are doing under the Galveston Plan:


http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/world/10933779.htm

Quote:
Posted on Fri, Feb. 18, 2005
Poorest likely worse off after Texas town abstains from Social Security

BY HOWARD WITT

Chicago Tribune


GALVESTON, Texas - (KRT) - For all the uncertainty swirling around President Bush's proposal to offer private Social Security retirement accounts, there is a corner of the country where the idea has already been tried and tested for a generation.

Three Texas counties hugging the Gulf of Mexico voluntarily withdrew from the federal Social Security system in 1981, transferring the retirement taxes of county employees into private investment accounts.

That's the good news: As the nation prepares to debate a momentous potential change in the bedrock federal retirement plan, there are some real-world experiences in Texas available to be studied as test cases.

The bad news is that the verdict is decidedly inconclusive. No one here can agree whether county retirees are better off than they would have been had they stayed with the Social Security system - a dilemma that precisely mirrors the emerging complexities of the national Social Security debate.

"I didn't come out ahead," said Evelyn Robison, who was the Galveston District Court clerk for 13 years before her retirement in 2004. "My chief deputy did not come out ahead. My bookkeeper did not come out ahead. I personally don't know anyone who has retired who came out ahead."


Nonsense, countered Rick Gornto, a Houston financial manager who designed the alternate retirement plans for Galveston, Brazoria and Matagorda counties and still runs them.

"In every case we ever looked at, people end up better off in our plan," said Gornto, president of First Financial Benefits.

For better or worse, what is being called the "Galveston plan" is already being scrutinized by both proponents and opponents of Social Security private accounts as they cast around for models to make their respective cases. In the last week, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, paid a visit here to learn more about the plan, while Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., phoned Galveston officials for information.

What intrigues most callers is the claim made by boosters of the Galveston plan that retirees can earn benefits that are two to four times higher than those provided by the Social Security system, without higher costs or greater risks.

"I think what we have here is a model for the rest of the country," said Ray Holbrook, a retired Galveston County judge and one of the original proponents of the plan. "The philosophy behind it is that we're better off if we fund our own retirements."

The three Texas counties set up their alternate retirement plan at a time when local and state government entities were permitted to withdraw from Social Security. Few actually did, according to the Social Security Administration, and in 1983, Congress closed the window, leaving the Galveston plan as an unusual orphaned model.

Under the plan, which covers some 5,000 employees in the three Texas counties, workers contribute a mandatory 6.1 percent of their gross salaries to their private retirement accounts, while the counties employing them add another 7.8 percent, for a total of 13.9 percent. That compares to a combined 12.4 percent Social Security contribution, divided equally between employees and employers.

Most of the funds are then invested in a combination of bank securities, bonds and annuities, where Gornto says they are currently earning an average 6 percent return.

That's a more conservative approach than what President Bush has proposed - allowing younger workers to divert up to 4 percent of their pay from Social Security into investments in the stock and bond markets - and Galveston officials say it was key to persuading county employees to quit the safety of Social Security for the private accounts.

"We probably never would have been successful if we'd said we were going to invest in the stock market," said Holbrook. "We assured employees it would be in safe investments, bonds and annuities."

(In fact, Brazoria County began allowing its employees to invest their funds in stock market equities several years ago. Only about a quarter elected to do so, and most have lost money during the stock market's downturn since 2000, Gornto said, further souring local officials on the option.)

When workers here retire, they can elect to have their accounts paid out as a lump sum, a series of payments or a lifetime annuity. The plan also includes a substantial death benefit, ranging from $75,000 to $215,000 depending on a worker's salary, and benefits for surviving beneficiaries and dependents.

Gornto's figures show that workers across all income levels do better under the Galveston plan. For example, Gornto says that a low-income county worker retiring at age 65 would receive just $683 per month from Social Security but more than $1,000 per month from the Galveston plan. Employees earning higher incomes can do at least twice as well as under Social Security, according to Gornto's calculations.

But there is substantial debate about those numbers. Two separate studies of the Galveston plan conducted in 1999, by the Social Security Administration and the federal General Accounting Office, each concluded that many low- and medium-income workers actually fare worse under the Galveston plan than they would have under Social Security, while the highest-paid employees do better.

"Our simulations found that low wage earners retiring today generally would have qualified for higher retirement incomes had they been under Social Security," the GAO report stated. "Many median wage earners, while initially receiving higher benefits under the (Galveston plan), would have eventually received larger benefits under Social Security because Social Security's benefits are indexed for inflation."

The Social Security Administration study found that a low-income married worker who retires in 2045 would receive just $670 per month under the Galveston plan, as opposed to $1,139 under Social Security. The highest-paid single workers, however, would earn $1,515 per month more under the Galveston model than under Social Security, according to the Social Security Administration calculations.

The gulf between Gornto's numbers and those from the federal agencies results from different assumptions about rates of return, length of employee service and age of retirement - all of which can dramatically affect the size of the monthly check any individual retiree receives.

Moreover, annuity payments under the Galveston plan are fixed and are not indexed for inflation, as are Social Security benefits. Nor does the Galveston plan increase benefits for a deceased worker's family based on the number of children left behind, as does Social Security. These factors, too, affect the complex actuarial comparisons between the Galveston model and the Social Security system.

Critics maintain that instituting private accounts similar to Galveston's for all workers would cause harm for many.

"These plans won't work for most people and would destroy Social Security for the vast number of Americans who depend on it," said Eric Kingson, a professor of social work at Syracuse University who has studied the Galveston plan.

"What we can learn from the Galveston experience is who will win and who will lose if we move toward this privatization plan," Kingson added. "People who work long and hard at relatively low wages get a proportionately higher benefit from Social Security, and that's because its purpose is to provide a basic set of protections for Americans."

The bottom line for many Galveston County retirees is the size of their check every month. And some say they have been bitterly disappointed.

"I get around $460 per month now, but under Social Security, I would have gotten $1,000," said Joyce Longcoy, who retired in 1998 after 23 years working for Galveston County. "They are putting this up to be a model for the rest of the country. Some model."


So,

Those who created the plan swear that everyone does better; while those who actually use the plan are getting less monies than they would have under SS, and aren't too happy with it.

The article also talks about how the rich do much, much better, proportionately, than the poor do under the plan. Sound familiar?

As the article states: Some Plan.

Now that that's been debunked, would you like to discuss the failure of Chile's system, the other great leg of privatization arguments?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:16 pm
Just,
The Galveston numbers show what will happen in private accounts. Those that make the most will do the best. Those on the bottom end will not do as well and a lot of cases do worse than if they were on SS. People that hold up Galveston as an example want to use the average not break it out by earnings because that shows the problems with it.

The Moynihan report that FreeDuck gave a link to a summary of shows that will happen. It has 2 tiers of investment. You have to put $5000 in before you can get to the second tier. A person making minimum wage can only put in $420 a year. That means they are looking at 11-12 years before they can make more than 3.5% return. That means they can't make higher returns like those of us with high salaries can.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:20 pm
The 'article' didn't state "some plan". One of the employees did.

There are a few errors I see in this report just at first glance. Wonder how many others there are?

My bottom line is this: If offered, I would take the privatization plan in a heartbeat.

If not, I'll invest on my own.

I think it's a bit premature to dismiss it without being able to study the entire plan, however. I also stand by my opinion that some here seriously underestimate the skills of the average investor.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:21 pm
Quote, "It has 2 tiers of investment. You have to put $5000 in before you can get to the second tier. A person making minimum wage can only put in $420 a year. That means they are looking at 11-12 years before they can make more than 3.5% return. That means they can't make higher returns like those of us with high salaries can. " Somebody is finally bothering to do the math. Thank god! I did and it didn't make any sense even to me! Most people do not do the math and live in la-la land thinking what this administration says is true.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:21 pm
Parados - the plan, as I understand it, will be voluntary. No one will be forced to participate.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:34 pm
Here's a good article that makes sense to me.
***************************************
What about equities? Despite the slump in prices in the three years to 2002, price-earnings (p/e) ratios still look a bit high, notably on American shares, and share valuations are unlikely to benefit from falling interest rates in future. Meanwhile, lower inflation means that the pace of profits growth will slow. Assume that America's nominal GDP grows by 5% a year (3% in real terms, plus 2% for inflation). If the share of profits in GDP is constant, profits will grow at the same rate. However, profits could do much less well, because in America, Japan and the euro area their share of GDP is close to a record high. They might well be expected to fall.
***************
Although inflation is relatively low now, the p/e ratios are relatively high. That means future profit/earnings will be struggling to show some headway against stock prices. The economies of the world are somewhat stablized, and the possibility of another tech bubble where many were millionaires on paper will not repeat any time soon. Invest for the long-term, and diversity. That's what I would do if I were starting my working career.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:34 pm
Oh, C'mon, JW, get serious here. You say that there are 'errors' with the article but don't say what those errors are. Come out with it, if you think there are errors in the article.

Quote:
The 'article' didn't state "some plan". One of the employees did.

There are a few errors I see in this report just at first glance. Wonder how many others there are?

My bottom line is this: If offered, I would take the privatization plan in a heartbeat.

If not, I'll invest on my own.

I think it's a bit premature to dismiss it without being able to study the entire plan, however. I also stand by my opinion that some here seriously underestimate the skills of the average investor.


The average investor's skills are by definition average. This means that the average investor won't be particularly good or bad at investing.

How is this average calculated? What happens to the people who do bad?

As for your comment about the plan being 'opt-in,' don't bet on it:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/03/02/national/w081453S57.DTL

Quote:
Echoing White House claims, congressional Republicans said they hope that by the time he is finished, the president will have produced a public groundswell for legislation, forcing at least some Democrats to reconsider their opposition.


Bush has said his plan would guarantee that Social Security benefits would remain unchanged for retirees and workers age 55 and over.


Younger Americans would be allowed to invest a portion of their payroll taxes on their own. In exchange they would receive a lower government benefit than they are now guaranteed, on the assumption that the proceeds of their investments would make up the difference. In addition, though, even younger voters who choose not to establish personal accounts would receive a reduced government benefit under Bush's plan, according to GOP congresisonal officials who have been briefed on the plan.


So, the only people who have been briefed on the plan, know that everyone will recieve reduced benefits. Once again: Some Plan.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:39 pm
One thing I didn't understand about the summary I linked to. It said that all three models would solve the solvency problem. It didn't say how that was determined and, to be honest, I'm having trouble seeing how it would solve it. Anybody know how they figured that?
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:45 pm
Cyclo - don't get your boxers all in a bunch and start being one of those who demand sources for every little thing.

At first glance, I see the article says Galveston and the other two counties were "orphans" or something, but when I was researching, I could have sworn that I read approximately 5M people nationwide took advantage of opting out of SS.

It just makes me suspicious when I see errors of that type being reported. Makes me wonder what else they got wrong LOL.

I think we all need to be patient here and see just exactly what Dubya's plan offers and how it will affect us all. Let's not jump to conclusions and start tearing something apart before we even know what it is.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:48 pm
Quote:
I think we all need to be patient here and see just exactly what Dubya's plan offers and how it will affect us all. Let's not jump to conclusions and start tearing something apart before we even know what it is.


Sure, okay. Has Dubya proposed a plan at all? Nope. And he won't. Here's why:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/comics/images/Toles/20050307.gif

Proposing a plan involving Privatization of SS would be suicide for the Republicans, as it leaves them immensely open to criticism; and they know it. That's why nothing has been done at all on it; and won't be done on it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:49 pm
Quote:
At first glance, I see the article says Galveston and the other two counties were "orphans" or something, but when I was researching, I could have sworn that I read approximately 5M people nationwide took advantage of opting out of SS.


There are some gov't workers who have opted out of SS that aren't under the Galveston Plan, but they aren't under anything resembling the Admin's plan either. See a few pages back in the thread and the link I gave to Thinkprogress' analysis of the discrepencies between the two plans.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:51 pm
Good Lord, Cyclo. You really need to stop going off the Zoloft.

Life is good! Life is wonderful! See the glass half FULL for once in your life!
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:56 pm
If I were president I would appoint Clyclo to the position of Secretary of the Treasury.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:59 pm
Then we'd all need Zoloft LOL.
0 Replies
 
 

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