2
   

SOCIAL SECURITY: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 03:59 pm
Lol, I see the glass 3/4 full, all the time!

It took me years to realize what a selfish bastard I was, and to break my desire for goods. Once you are on the outside, it's easy to see how people get caught in the same way that I was caught. I'd like to help change that for others in the same way it was changed for me.

That being said, I think those running the country currently are thugs and thieves, murderers and crooks. I'll have none of their bullsh*t; and neither should you, JW. It's hard not to get depressed when you begin to understand the methodologies of control that have been used to co-opt the poor and religious in the country; but I'd rather discuss it than just sit there angry about how people's lives are being used to benefit the richest 1% of society...

Now, do you have any answers/proposals as to how the privatization plan is going to actually help the solvency of SS in both the short/long run?

Smile

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:01 pm
And for the answer to my own question:

http://www.cbpp.org/2-2-05socsec4.htm

Quote:
The one proposal that the President's Social Security Commission advanced to close the gap through benefit cuts was to change the formula for computing initial Social Security benefits from one that uses "wage indexing" to one that uses "price indexing." Administration officials have talked up this proposal in recent weeks. If the Administration uses price indexing to restore actuarial balance, then the benefit reductions under the plan that the Administration otherwise outlined today would be very large. For instance, a worker born in 2000 who has average wages, participates in the private accounts, and retires in 2065, would have total benefits (from Social Security and the private account) that are 50 percent below the Social Security benefit scheduled under current law (and 34 percent below what Social Security would be able to pay even if no steps are taken to restore solvency). This estimate and others shown in the table below use the Congressional Budget Office's methodology for computing the benefits levels under the proposed private accounts and price indexing.


There's a nice chart there that I couldn't copy. So it looks like their proposal to fix the solvency problem is to base the benefit on the price index, which would result in a reduction of benefits, and the introduction of private accounts is just for fun, I guess.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:04 pm
Nah. I'll leave that bit of fun to you and FreeDuck LOL.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:06 pm
Slacker Republicans. Always leaving it to the hard-working liberals to come up with the real solutions.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:09 pm
Lol, ahead of ya again, FD.



Quote:
e Price of Price-Indexing
No one has spoken much about President Bush's other proposed reforms to Social Security, particularly changing the formula by which benefits are calculated. And when President Bush tries to address the suggestion, it comes out something like this:

"Does that make any sense to you? It's kind of muddled. Look, there's a series of things that cause the - like, for example, benefits are calculated based upon the increase of wages, as opposed to the increase of prices. Some have suggested that we calculate - the benefits will rise based upon inflation, as opposed to wage increases. There is a reform that would help solve the red if that were put into effect. In other words, how fast benefits grow, how fast the promised benefits grow, if those - if that growth is affected, it will help on the red."

Still don't get it? Right now, Social Security benefits are calculated through what is called "wage-indexing," which adjusts a worker's earnings based on wage growth during the worker's lifetime. President Bush is proposing switching to a "price-indexing" formula, which essentially adjusts earnings based on inflation. That means huge benefit cuts since wages always increase faster than prices. For example, if today's retirees benefits were calculated using price-indexing their benefits would be cut by 60 percent. And the picture for future retirees doesn't look much better.

For the sake of future generations, we need to call attention to all the questionable parts of President Bush's Social Security overhaul, not just to private accounts.


Gotta tell ya, I like the way you think!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:10 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:53 pm
AP: "The heart of President Bush's plan for Social Security, allowing younger workers to create personal accounts in exchange for a lower guaranteed government benefit, is among the least popular elements with the public, Republican pollsters told House GOP leaders Tuesday."

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/breaking_news/11084610.htm

Yoinks! That's a monkey wrench in the gears.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:06 pm
Cyclo, I was interested to find something on the 18 to 29 age group, and how they support Bush's individual account scheme. The most recent polls show them to support it, and I'm wondering if that still held true - based on all the negative media on the issue.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:11 pm
From ze article:

Quote:
The focus groups, as well as earlier nationwide polling, were paid for by the National Republican Congressional Committee, the campaign arm of the House GOP. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the memo.

Unlike a poll that may survey hundreds of people, a focus group involves a moderator leading a discussion. The participants are chosen for different characteristics such as age, gender and voting behavior.

According to the memo, Americans of all age groups "were most resistant to proposals that involved cutting or reducing benefits or raising Social Security payroll taxes.


So, it was republicans picking the attendants; and all age groups were still against reducing benefits.

And this according to republican pollsters, no less.

Smile

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 02:46 pm
It's been claimed by some on here that the CATO institute is a good source for facts on this debate. *cough*Fox*cough*

But how can one consider them impartial when they are so blatantly partisan?

http://zfacts.com/p/486.html

Quote:
Plotting Privatization?


Title: ACHIEVING A "LENINIST" STRATEGY
Cato Journal, vol. 3, no.2 (Fall 1983) (700kB PDF). copyright © Cato Institute.

It began in 1982 at the "Rebuilding Social Security" Conference at the radical-right Heritage Foundation, but the plot against Social Security was fleshed out by Butler (a Cato director) and Germanis (an analyst at Heritage) in the Fall 1983 issue of Cato's journal, summarized through quotes here:b]

"Lenin recognized that fundamental change is contingent upon ... its success in isolating and weakening its opponents. ... we would do well to drawa few lessons from the Leninist strategy. (p. 547)

"we must recognize that we need more than a manifesto ... we must ... construct ... a coalition that will ... reap benefits from the IRA-based private system Ferrara has proposed but also the banks, insurance companies, and ... that will gain from providing such plans to the public." (p. 548)

By approaching the problem in this way, we may be ready for the next crisis in Social Security. (p. 548)

"From a purely political standpoint, it should be remembered that the elderly represent a very powerful and vocal interest group. (p. 549)


A Plan of Action

"The first element consists of a campaign to achieve small legislative changes that embellish the present IRA system, making it in practice a small-scale private Social Security system. ... the natural constituency for an enlarged IRA system must be ... welded into a coalition for political change. (p. 551)

"The second main element ... involves what one might crudely call guerrilla warfare against both the current Social Security system and the coalition that supports it. (p. 552)

Creating a Private Model
"The reason for designing a "super IRA" law with these restrictions is purely political." (p. 552)

"Social Security reform requires mobilizing the various coalitions that stand to benefit from the change, ... the business community, and financial institutions in particular ... (p. 553)

"The banking industry and other business groups that can benefit from expanded IRAs ...

"... the strategy must be to propose moving to a private Social Security system in such a way as to ... neutralize, ... the coalition that supports the existing system." (p. 555)

But then, as Lenin well knew, to be a successful revolutionary, one must also be patient and consistently plan for real reform. (Concluding sentence, p. 556)


They've been planning this a looooong time. And look at the pretty language the use to describe how it has to be done: 'as Lenin knew well,' 'the business community, and financial institutions in particular -- stand to benefit from the change...'

Don't let them fool you with the pretty picture they've painted; it's the same old thuggery, back again, with SS in it's sights.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 02:50 pm
It seems only the yung'uns are buying, hook, line and sinker. That should tell us something.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 02:59 pm
Quote:
It seems only the yung'uns are buying, hook, line and sinker. That should tell us something.


I don't really believe this is true, actually.

I have yet to talk to a youngun who thinks that private accounts are a good idea; conservative or liberal. I will agree that SS is an issue that many of us would like to see addressed, but I don't think many people trust the Republicans to do it.

The problem is that the younguns interviewed are basically being asked questions without knowing anything about what they are answering; and who wouldn't say yes when the question is, 'would you like more money?' It takes research and time to find out how much they are lying....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 03:07 pm
Cyclo, I'm only relying on the poll taken some weeks ago, so that may have changed.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 07:48 pm
The most interesting, and promising, finding is that the more people (of all age grades) learn about Bush's plan (as sketchy as it is), the more they disapprove of it.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 07:08 am
jlNobody, I think you are right.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35231-2005Mar14.html

Skepticism of Bush's Social Security Plan Is Growing
Polling and Interviews Find Concerns Across Age Groups

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer

Tuesday, March 15, 2005; Page A01

Three months after President Bush launched his drive to restructure Social Security by creating private investment accounts, public support for his program remains weak, with only 35 percent of Americans now saying they approve of his handling of the issue, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

While the White House has helped convince more than two-thirds of those polled that Social Security is heading for a crisis or possible bankruptcy without change, 56 percent disapprove of his approach, a survey of 1,001 adults conducted March 10-13 shows. By comparison, 38 percent approved of his handling of the issue and 52 percent disapproved of it in mid-December.

Moreover, 58 percent of those polled this time said the more they hear about Bush's plan, the less they like it. The latest polling, combined with detailed interviews last week, shows that Bush's drive to significantly alter the 70-year-old national insurance program has run into significant hurdles with every age cohort.

A majority of elderly voters have turned against the plan for private accounts, even though the White House has assured them it would have no impact on their Social Security benefits. Younger workers, who have the most to gain, also tend to be the most difficult to mobilize, according to interviews. And many middle-aged workers are faced with the reality that there would not be enough time before their retirement to gain much financial benefit from the new approach.

"The president knows it's a challenge and is taking it head-on," White House spokesman Trent Duffy said. "He is just getting started, and he's going to keep traveling, pushing and explaining to people of all ages why Social Security needs to be fixed permanently and why it's best that personal accounts be part of the solution."

For middle-aged workers such as Kathy Remenar of Midland, Mich., the issue is simple mathematics.

"I personally wouldn't get a whole lot out of it, really," said the 46-year-old director of science and technology for Dow Corning Corp.'s specialty chemicals business. "It's not relevant to me."

Bush has promised that, under his proposal, workers would eventually be able to divert 4 percent of their income subject to payroll taxes to private accounts, which could then be invested in stocks and bonds. A 46-year-old earning the maximum income subject to Social Security taxation -- currently $90,000 -- could theoretically salt away $3,600 a year.
But the plan would be phased in slowly, starting in 2009 with an initial annual cap of $1,000 and rising by $100 a year. It would take an additional 26 years for someone at the taxable maximum to save the promised 4 percent. By then, Remenar would be 76 and long since retired. And in the short time period available to middle-aged workers, investment gains would have to exceed inflation by 3 percent for the accounts to make more money than the traditional Social Security system would provide.

"If there are no other incentives than this, we probably wouldn't take part in it, because the numbers don't make a whole lot of sense for us personally," said Sue Smorodin, 45, a homemaker in St. Louis.

Republican Michael Cardwell, a land-use planner in Washington state, did the math. He would retire with $11,000 in his account, plus maybe $900 more in investment gains if all went well on the stock market.

"Wow," Cardwell, 50, said with a laugh. "I may get one additional paycheck, thank you very much." Nonetheless, he said he will support the president.

Not all middle-aged workers are skeptical. Marilyn Donnelly, a 46-year-old nurse on Florida's central Atlantic coast, said that with luck a personal account could grow substantially, and she relishes the opportunity to give it a try. She is already saving 16 percent of her income for retirement, Donnelly said, but too much of her paycheck is going to a Social Security system that is not likely to do as well with the money as she could.

"I want the opportunity to invest some of that money myself so it will grow more than what Social Security is going to give me," said Donnelly, of Rockledge. "And I feel [Bush is] offering me that opportunity."

But after nearly a dozen interviews with middle-aged voters, it appears Donnelly's optimism is not widely shared.

"If you're my age, it isn't going to make much difference really," said Mark Kaufman, 52, a rancher and farmer in Nebraska's panhandle. "I can't get all that excited."

"It won't add up to much," agreed John Hall, 50, a small-business man in Lubbock, Tex., and a strong supporter of the president. "But for my daughter, it could be a tremendous amount. She's 19 years old, and for her, the future of the Social Security system is not too bright."

Indeed, the White House is pinning its political hopes on younger voters such as Hall's daughter. They tend to be deeply ambivalent about the future of Social Security and blessed with enough time until retirement to build up sizable accounts.

In this month's poll, 68 percent of adults 18 to 29 years old said they support investing some Social Security contributions in the stock market. That support falls with the respondents' age, to 60 percent among those 40 to 49, 53 percent among those 50 to 64, and 37 percent among those 65 and older.

But young workers present their own political problems. For one thing, they tend to be less politically involved. Only 38 percent of young respondents say they know much about Bush's Social Security proposal, well below the levels seen among middle-aged and elderly respondents.
At 32, Kathy Lavigne of Wayzata, Minn., said she thinks she supports the president's Social Security plans. But, she conceded, she cannot be sure.
"Honestly, I've discussed it with my business partner here or there, but I'm not watching it too closely," the insurance saleswoman said.

If she were moved to call her representative in Congress, she would have a little problem. She does not know her congressman's name.
If it were up to Ray Waters, a 32-year-old construction sales representative in Kansas, he would keep all of his Social Security taxes in a private account, but absent that, he strongly backs Bush's proposal. "I guess it comes down to it's my money," he said.

But though his congressman, Rep. Dennis Moore, is a perennial Republican target, Waters is not clamoring for a bullhorn to pressure the state's only Democrat in Congress.

"I don't get to camp out in front of Fox News as much as I would like to," he said. "Between work and a little boy and a baby, there's not a whole lot of time for politics."

Finally, younger workers may support the idea of private accounts, but they also tend to oppose Bush. Democratic candidate John F. Kerry claimed 54 percent of the 18-to-29-year-old vote in November, the only age bracket he carried. And distrust of the president is lingering among even some young workers inclined to support investing part of their Social Security contribution. Only 40 percent of these younger workers say they support Bush's Social Security proposal.

"I'm not a big fan of Bush, not at all," said Michelle Hinson, 31, of Morgan Hill, Calif., just south of San Jose. But she grudgingly says she likes the idea of personal accounts. "If I think it's a good idea, then I'm willing to listen and hear what's going on. But for the most part, I don't agree with anything he's doing."

If young voters tend to be apathetic or ambivalent, the elderly are anything but. GOP strategists are convinced Republican politicians must emphasize over and over that anyone older than 55 will not be affected by the plan. By exempting those in or near retirement from participation in the accounts or any benefit reductions, Bush hopes to neutralize opposition from the most vocal and reliable voting bloc.

But the strategy may backfire, homemaker Smorodin said, noting that her mother has grown incensed about the issue. By and large, the elderly do understand the president has promised not to touch their Social Security checks, according to polling.

But that is not relevant to their political opposition, Smorodin said, noting that older people also worry that pension benefit cuts will hurt their children and grandchildren.

At 69, Gene Wallace knows the White House's proposal would have no impact on his Social Security check, but if Bush believes that will silence the Republican mayor of Coldwater, Mich., Wallace grumbled, "he's all wet."

"I'm a parent as well as a grandparent. Somewhere along the line, they are going to be eligible for retirement assistance," he said, with all the energy he could muster three weeks after open-heart surgery. "It's everybody's concern what happens to this country."

Assistant polling director Claudia Deane contributed to this report.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 12:19 pm
Bait and switch seems to be the realm of the Bush presidency.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 12:26 pm
The problem with the Bush approach is "greed" only works to a certain point before "moral values" takes over.

People are realizing that getting it for themselves is bad for their family. Perhaps some of them will wake up.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 12:59 pm
Some already have awoken, but many young folks still think it's a good deal. They don't realize that 1) they get less social security benefits, and 2) personal investments do not always end up more than their investments, and there are no guarantees.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 01:23 pm
I think the younger crowd who is being polled simply don't know what the issue is all about, in large part.

I also think there is a lot of anti-Bush sentiment amongst the younger crowd; and I doubt that will reverse based on this issue, or even for this issue only.

As Josh Marshall said the other day on Talking Points Memo, the Stench of Death is all around the Social Security issue these days.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 03:02 pm
I'm not so sure; Greenspan is saying social security should be addressed to congress.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/29/2024 at 05:57:32