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SOCIAL SECURITY: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 01:16 pm
From Williams' essay
Quote:


Let's check this out and be sure Williams has the right take on it if we can. (I've never known Williams to do faulty research however.)

And now I'm outta here for a bit but will return.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 02:07 pm
All this opt-in and opt-out nonsense is just a smokescreen.

From http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/03/02/national/w081453S57.DTL

Quote:
GOP Lawmakers Attack Democrats, AARP
By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent

Wednesday, March 2, 2005


Printable Version
Email This Article




(03-02) 08:33 PST WASHINGTON, (AP) --


Republicans attacked the AARP as well as congressional Democrats on Wednesday as they struggled to build momentum behind President Bush's call for personal investment accounts under Social Security.


The AARP, which claims 35 million members age 50 and over, is "against a solution that hasn't been written yet," said House Majority Leader Tom DeLay after a closed-door meeting with the GOP rank and file.


He called the group's opposition to personal accounts irresponsible and hypothetical, adding that it sells mutual funds to its own membership.


A spokeswoman for the organization had no immediate comment.


DeLay and Speaker Dennis Hastert also criticized congressional Democrats, who are virtually united in opposition to Bush's plans. "The party of no," Hastert called them.


Republicans unleashed their latest attack as Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan urged Congress to act quickly to fix looming financing problems for Social Security as well as Medicare. "If existing promises need to be changed, those changes should be made sooner rather than later," he told the House Budget Committee.


One program provides retirement, survivors and disability income for 54 million Americans, while the other is the government's health care program for seniors.


As he has before, Greenspan endorsed a key element of Bush's plans for Social Security, a proposal that would allow workers to set aside a portion of their payroll taxes to be invested on their own. But he stressed that much more needed to be done to put the giant retirement program and Medicare, which he said faced even more severe financial strains, on a more sound footing.


Diverting the payroll taxes into the Social Security trust fund, Greenspan said, had merely allowed the government to run larger budget deficits. He said that switching to the private accounts would be a way to bolster the nation's low savings rate.


In his prepared testimony, Greenspan did not repeat the cautionary message he sent last month: Creation of the accounts should be done slowly to gauge the impact on financial markets of the increased borrowing that will be needed.


"The one certainty is that the resolution of the nation's unprecedented demographic challenge will require hard choices and that the future performance of the economy will depend on those choices," Greenspan said.


Hastert and DeLay talked with reporters after meeting with lawmakers just back from a week spent sampling public opinion on Social Security. DeLay said the session produced "not one negative comment by the members."


At the same time, both he and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist left open the possibility on Tuesday that final action may not be possible this year, and the Texas Republican conceded that opponents of Bush's plans were better organized than supporters.


Both DeLay and Hastert said Republicans are determined to move ahead with Bush's proposals, and several Republicans said they believe the president's national campaigning is slowly raising public awareness of the issue.


"We're still early in the process," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.


Bush and congressional Republicans have consistently sought to coax Democrats into negotiations on Social Security. Democrats have just as insistently resisted, arguing that since Republicans control the White House and both houses of Congress, they must first present a comprehensive Social Security proposal of their own.


At stake is an issue of surpassing political significance. Democrats contend Bush and Republicans want to cut benefits to pay for privatizing part of the Depression-era program, and have made clear they intend to try and use the issue at the 2006 elections.


Republicans counter their goal is to shore up a program with shaky finances, but also are leery of being maneuvered into taking a series of politically difficult votes unless the result will be legislation that Bush signs and at least some Democrats support.


Bush is to travel to six states over the next two weeks, and many more later as he tries to build public support for a Social Security overhaul.


Echoing White House claims, congressional Republicans said they hope that by the time he is finished, the president will have produced a public groundswell for legislation, forcing at least some Democrats to reconsider their opposition.


Bush has said his plan would guarantee that Social Security benefits would remain unchanged for retirees and workers age 55 and over.


Younger Americans would be allowed to invest a portion of their payroll taxes on their own. In exchange they would receive a lower government benefit than they are now guaranteed, on the assumption that the proceeds of their investments would make up the difference. In addition, though, even younger voters who choose not to establish personal accounts would receive a reduced government benefit under Bush's plan, according to GOP congresisonal officials who have been briefed on the plan.


I've bolded the important part, but I'll repeat it again for clarity:

According to GOP congressional officials who have been briefed on the pres' SS plan,

even younger voters who choose not to establish personal accounts would receive a reduced government benefit .

Lie, lie, lie, lie, and lie some more, is the admin's way.....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 02:12 pm
Cyclop I'll ask again that the discussion be kept as non-flaming and non-insulting as possible so that we don't degenerate into unresolvable partisanship.

It's pretty difficult to say whether anybody is lying when we have seen absolutely nothing of a finished plan on the table. Those speculating on what the plan will be are simply speculating.

Objective people who wish to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem are exploring ways it might work. If it won't work, it won't happen. It's as simple as that. But it is entirely defeatist to say something won't work until it is looked at from all possible angles.

And now back to my meeting.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 02:32 pm
Okay, I'll keep the partisanship bottled up until there's more info out there on this.

But this

Quote:
In addition, though, even younger voters who choose not to establish personal accounts would receive a reduced government benefit under Bush's plan, according to GOP congresisonal officials who have been briefed on the plan.


Seems to be in conflict with statements the pres. and others have made about the republican 'plan.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 02:39 pm
SSA benefits have been tweaked many times over the years. There are so many ways to do it and they have almost all been done.

I favor paying the national debt and closing the defecit before playing around with a system like SSA.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 03:13 pm
But Cyclop, you are going by the opinion of a probably very ill-informed reporter giving his obviously biased emphasis. There is no 'plan' on the table yet, therefore there is nothing for 'GOP congressional officials" (whoever the heck that might be) to assess. I have no problem with getting the different points of view on this, but whenever you have a reporter citing 'unnamed officials' or anything similar, you can be pretty darn sure the reporter is either miquoting somebody or is making it up or is using a source that doesn't know any more than he does.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 03:28 pm
Quote:
'unnamed officials'


Are used all the time when a highly-placed official wants to be able to comment without incurring the wrath of his/her own party. 'Senior Officials' is a popular one as well.

The quote, from the article, was based upon a reporter who was speaking with GOP members who were in a closed-door session talking about it. You could be right, and the reporter is wrong; we'll wait and see.

What exactly is the pres. proposing? He hasn't proposed a 'plan,' as you've stated, yet GOP leaders have really criticized Dems lately for also not proposing a 'plan.' And why should the Dems bother to propose anything? The Republicans have made it perfectly clear that now that they hold the majorities, it's not going to be Dem bills that get passed.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 03:35 pm
The GOP has retaliated under accusations by some Democrats that the GOP is attempting to dismantle social security. Just look at the some of the titles of threads here on A2K. The Dems criticize the GOP and the GOP asks for the Dems' plan, and when they have none, yes criticize the Dems' for having no plan while critizing what they assume the GOP plan will be.

Do you see how silly all this is? Nobody, let alone an unschooled reporter, should be criticizing a plan that doesn't even exist. I would like to think reasonable people can do better than that.

My hope for this thread is for us to all look for something that might work. At the very least we will have better educated ourselves so we will be better able to judge whether we will agree with or scream bloody murder at whatever plan is finally proposed no matter who proposes it.

And I know from my own Congresswoman that Congress is paying attention to these message boards. Smile
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 03:48 pm
Wasn't sure which ss thread to post this to. This one seems as good as any. Factcheck.org is back!

http://www.factcheck.org/article305.html

Quote:
In his State of the Union Address, President Bush said again that the Social Security system is headed for "bankruptcy," a term that could give the wrong idea. Actually, even if it goes "bankrupt" a few decades from now, the system would still be able to pay about three-quarters of the benefits now promised.

Bush also made his proposed private Social Security accounts sound like a sure thing, which they are not. He said they "will" grow fast enough to provide a better return than the present system. History suggests that will be so, but nobody can predict what stock and bond markets will do in the future.

Bush left out any mention of what workers would have to give up to get those private acounts -- a proportional reduction or offset in guaranteed Social Security retirement benefits. He also glossed over the fact that money in private accounts would be "owned" by workers only in a very limited sense -- under strict conditions which the President referred to as "guidelines." Many retirees, and possibly the vast majority, wouldn't be able to touch their Social Security nest egg directly, even after retirement, because the government would take some or all of it back and convert it to a stream of payments guaranteed for life.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 03:54 pm
IMO your 'fact check' misses the mark Freeduck. President Bush was obviously in favor of privatizing a portion of social security. After that the writer of fact check draws assumptions about what the President said that I simply believe he did not say. He did not present any plan or give any specifics and I think this was entirely intentional. As nearly as I remember, he pretty well put it on Congress's plate, told them they had so much time before the system was out of money, and come to a bipartisan solution to fix it.

As far as the Factcheck's definition of 'bankruptcy', how long would any of us be able to pay only 3/4ths of our bills before we had to declare bankruptcy? Smile
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 03:58 pm
Hmmm. There's a lot more to the article than the part I quoted, which was just the summary. If you click the link you will see that they are referencing the SOTU address and other sources, which are documented at the bottom.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:01 pm
Fox, if you insist on remaining "non-partisan," then I suggest you not copy and paste information from conservative think tanks. Otherwise, you sound like the pot calling the kettle back when you warn others not to venture into partisan territory.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:03 pm
Freeduck, I went back and re-read the whole thing. My opinion isn't changed.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:04 pm
So you're questioning factcheck.org's sourcing?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:06 pm
Dookie, if you want to be non-partisan you consider ideas on their own merits rather than where they originated. A good idea is a good idea no matter who first came up with it. I am curious though. What conservative think tank do you think I copied and pasted from here?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:09 pm
No Freeduck. I don't even know what their sourcing is. I listened to the SOTU, twice. (Once by myself and later with my husband.) I read it since when doing some fact checking of my own.

I simply disagree that Factcheck is accurately interpreting what the President said. It doesn't really matter as we'll almost certainly get to all the points they raised sooner or later if this thread stays active.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:23 pm
Quote:
am curious though. What conservative think tank do you think I copied and pasted from here?


Um, the National Center for Policy Analysis

Quote:
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=10242

National Center for Policy Analysis

12655 North Central Expressway, Suite 720
Dallas, TX 75243-1739
www.ncpa.org

Established: 1983
President/Executive Director: John C. Goodman
Finances: $5,237,217 (total expenditures in 2001)
Employees: 22
Affiliations: NCPA is a member of the State Policy Network, a network of national and local right-wing think tanks, and of townhall.com, a right-wing internet portal created by the Heritage Foundation.
Publications: NCPA sponsors two of its own syndicated columnists: Pete du Pont (Scripps Howard) and Bruce Bartlett (Creators Syndicate). Bartlett's column appears under contract twice a week in the Washington Times and in the Detroit News.

A right wing think tank with programs devoted to privatization in the following issue areas: taxes, Social Security and Medicare, health care, criminal justice, environment, education, and welfare.

NCPA describes its close working relationship with Congress, saying it "has managed to have more than a dozen studies released by members of Congress - a rare event for a think tank - and frequently members of Congress appear at the NCPA's Capitol Hill briefings for congressional aides."

Right-wing foundations funding includes: Bradley, Scaife, Koch, Olin, Earhart, Castle Rock, and JM Foundations

In the early 90s, NCPA created the Center for Tax Studies. NCPA's website describes the inspiration for the Center: "Very few think tank studies are released by members of Congress."


Lovely. Enough said.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 04:25 pm
Okay, I didn't look that deep. Now in the spirit of that good information is good information and good ideas are good ideas no matter what the source, what was in the article I posted that bothers you?

I mean the article was posted showing how privatization works and this was before Clinton came up with his proposal to do something along the lines of privatization..
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 05:44 pm
Quote:
Do you see how silly all this is? Nobody, let alone an unschooled reporter, should be criticizing a plan that doesn't even exist. I would like to think reasonable people can do better than that.


Ah ah ah!

The reporter only reported, he didn't criticize. You're assuming any report stating such a thing would be a criticism; but that doesn't rob validity from what the reporter wrote.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 05:50 pm
Look, the fact is that it's Bush who made SS into a huge issue right at this time.

It's Bush who made the cornerstone of his new proposal Private accounts.

It's Bush who has claimed that his plan is going to lead SS into solvency, but failed to show how.

The responsibility lies with him to provide a detailed plan, with realistic numbers, outlining how things are going to work. There is no plan.

And people just plain don't trust Republicans to mess around with Social Security. They know deep down that most of the GOP want to do away with the damn thing (some come right out and say it), which the public doesn't want.

This whole thing is going to end up blowing up in the admin's face...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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