surfdude wrote:Remeber I have never hit her. We were hammered and we got WWF on eachother
What does "we got WWF on each other" mean? You were wrestling around?
This makes me wonder. Is it always the beginning of an abusive relationship when one spouse gets violent with another? I mean, say, for instance, in the above case that surfdude has layed out...what if both the wife and husband were wrestling around, both involved in the violence...isn't this a case where it might not actually be a sign of the downward spiral into abuse? Maybe they
both just lost it for a brief period of time. Isn't it possible then that it is a one-time thing, and not the beginning of a violent abusive relationship?
C-JANE WROTE "Nor will there ever
be an excuse for being violent, despite alcohol, drugs,
being provoked by another or for whatever reason one
might bring up - there is never any justification for violent behavior. "
This brings up a question. How much must one take when a spouse is firing off verball provocation from the implied saftey of the marriage vows. We are all human and have a breaking point.
Kicky- You nailed it with both husband and wife blowing it in a one time fiasco.
But to the question Maybe not the beginning of an abusive relationship. Now that it's happened once, truthfully I am concerned about the likelyhood of it happening again. Afterall once we open the door its easier to walk in every time.
Indeed Surfdude - verbal abuse is abusive too.
Sounds like a relationship that needs some serious work on BOTH sides, IF it is worth saving???
But - I do think that, if we are the one that is most able to do physical harm, we need to be the one to make the "get out of this situation before someone gets hurt" decision.
Of course, a responsible person takes time out of an argument if abusive words are gonna be said.
It is perfectly possible to argue passionately but by reasonable "rules" if you will.
"Now that it's happened once, truthfully I am concerned about the likelyhood of it happening again. Afterall once we open the door its easier to walk in every time."
I think those very wise words.
Something pretty strong needs to be done to reseal the door.
surfdude wrote:. . . . How much must one take when a spouse is firing off verball provocation from the implied saftey of the marriage vows. We are all human and have a breaking point.
You don't have to "take" anything. Walk away.
An abuser's excuse: "How much am I supposed to take? It's all your fault that I was violent because you provoked me and I couldn't take anymore."
Truth: It's the abuser's loss of control that results in the violence -- not the alleged provocation.
"Implied safety?" What does that mean?
If an individual is not safe in a relationship from the violence of an abuser, marriage vows aren't going to make that person any safer.
If you are being verbally abused, married or not, you establish boundaries: Abuse is NOT acceptable. If you are being verbally abused, you walk away. You do not respond with violence.
An abuser's excuse: "You provoked me; I'm just human and we all have our breaking point."
Truth: You lost control and you are making excuses for your own loss of control.
Provocation is no excuse for losing control and resorting to violence.
_Heatwave_ wrote:Quote:Anyways, when I asked him why he never abused her, he just simply said, "Because, I didn't love her."
How messed up is that?! I cannot understand why people hurt in the worst possible ways the very people they claim to love most. That is NOT love. You want to cherish and nurture and protect the people you really love - not hurt them.
Might be messed up - but it is common - people idealize "love" - it is often, in a way, a kind of physical/emotional crucible full of the best and "worst" in us.
For many abusive people, an intimate love relationship triggers their deepest wounds from their earliest months and years on the planet. In this relationship, when they fear losing it, or parts of their desired ego state within it, they become as needy, fearful, infants again - with all an infant's egocentricity, grandiosity, lack of empathy, an infant's absolute emotional intensity - (where they do not EXPERIENCE emotions - they ARE emotions).
Only - now there is an adult body......
CalamityJane wrote:That's interesting brooke. I always thought, a abuser is
a abuser, regardless of the women he's with. Does anyone
know why they would abuse so selectively?
I doubt we'll see an abuser speaking out openly about
his abuse. Nevertheless, I do think what you're doing is
so important brooke.
There are many young girls writing in this sub and they
should know the warning signs when entering a new relationship. Knowing the m.o. of an abuser makes it
easier to spot one and hopefully run like hell.
Instead of being ashamed and keep quiet about abuse,
you have chosen to help other women who are in a violent
relationship and need advise. Kudos to you brooke
I believe - as far as I am aware - that stats suggest most abusers abuse in all their relationships with partners.
dlowan,
Very interesting point of view. it kind of make sences to me.
@ kicky,
he went to jail by his own admittance, so I don't think
a little wrestling was the answer.
@surfdude
as debra_law already said: You walk away from abuse, regardless if it is verbal or physical abuse. Just walk away!
dlowan wrote
Quote:I believe - as far as I am aware - that stats suggest most abusers abuse in all their relationships with partners.
I thought so too, but apparently the abuser has to love his
punching bag, otherwise he doesn't care too much.
Quote:"Implied safety?" What does that mean?
I guess "Implied saftey" is a reach for a description of the dynamics of so many relationships that I see. Mrs. Dude is not a woman that does this. I will try not to light myself on fire here... So many spouses I hear will take themselves to an "untouchable" place and spew or do whatever they want in an argument, all the while ignoring signs that they are raising the threat level a little more with each lash of the tounge.
Quote:An abuser's excuse: "You provoked me; I'm just human and we all have our breaking point."
I agree 100% which is why I asked the question.
Quote:Truth: You lost control and you are making excuses for your own loss of control.
Deborah you are wise but in this case wrong. So sharp with the keyboard. I am not an excuse seeker at least not in our case. For us facts is facts and thankfully for my marriage I have a wife that is woman enough look at the facts of our case...from her own iniative I might add... and we are taking steps to put our humpty back together.
Quote:Provocation is no excuse for losing control and resorting to violence.
I am willing to be the bad guy for this one....
From so many mens point of view... Em's fighten words. We are taught from an early age to stand up for ourselves by doing whatever it takes.
Bring on the beatings
I am a little confused, still, by the "untouchable place" surfdude. Can you explain a little more?
PS: This is an absolutely straight question, btw, I admire your courage and openness in being here - and I have no intent of trying to "make you the bad guy".
dlowan wrote:
For many abusive people, an intimate love relationship triggers their deepest wounds from their earliest months and years on the planet. In this relationship, when they fear losing it, or parts of their desired ego state within it, they become as needy, fearful, infants again - with all an infant's egocentricity, grandiosity, lack of empathy, an infant's absolute emotional intensity - (where they do not EXPERIENCE emotions - they ARE emotions).
Only - now there is an adult body......
Exactly! In the case of my abuser, when he was a child he has a painful memory going back to when he says he was 2 years old. His father was American and his mother British. He says he remembers his father leaving to come back to America and his mother holding him in her arms as they watched the ship sail away. They were left behind. He said this had a horrible impact on him and he found himself as he grew older, fearing that everything he loved would leave him, just like his Father did. I asked his Mother about what he told me. She said that, yes he did scream, and kick his feet, and cry so hard she could hardly hold onto him, when he watched his Fathers ship leaving port. It's hard for me to believe he had such a vivid memory at the age of 2, but I know it's possible.
Eventually his Father came back to England and they were reunited. It just has always stuck with him. There were other instances in his life where someone or something he loved left him. I don't remember what they were though.
dlowan? I don't know what you do for a living, but your knowledge of people and their problems within, I find amazing. You are very wise. I love reading your posts.
Blush - thankee - I am a therapist now working with kids and families - and specializing in attachment and trauma.
But I spent the first four years of me career with offenders - my first ever client was a multiple rapist!! I have worked with very violent fellas. And women - did a trauma therapy project at the women's prison 10 years ago - man oh man!!!!! And these women were, sadly, the most deeply traumatised people I have ever seen - including torture victims (but I don't usually work with them - so I can't make a decent comparison) - so be a lot of the really violent fellas.
dlowan wrote:Blush - thankee - I am a therapist now working with kids and families - and specializing in attachment and trauma.
Oh! That's wonderful. I can tell that you are very good at what you do. I know, if you were in my neighborhood, I would certainly feel like I were in good hands inside your office....indeed!!!
Re: Surfdude's point of losing control after being verbally lashed out at - and the response, you should have just walked away: well, obviously, thats the sane thing to do - just walk away, if you know you cant (or wont) stand it - but we've seen with victims of abuse here that its not at all simple to "just walk away" - why would it be simple for Mr. Surfdude (or whichever such guy)?
Plus: how do you walk away, when you're married, and living together? You can go take a walk, literally, when the fight is on (however hard it may be to tear yourself away when you feel, I dunno, unjustly attacked by the person you love) - but what if, every time you come back, it starts again? Go on overnight stays with your family? What if you have to go to work in town in the morning? How do you "walk away" if the person lashing out at you verbally is your partner, lives in your house, sleeps in your bed, wont stop when you say, "stop, I dont want to talk (like this) anymore?". I dunno. It sounds so simple, just "you didnt need to take it, you could/should have just walked away". But it cant be, even just logistically, if you're not ready for divorce that is.
(My parents were pretty sensible; they had a number of raging fights that I remember, I was six or seven at the time; I remember it came to throwing plates in each other's general direction (once? twice?) and (once) my father threw an apple at my mother, hit her straight in her stomach, I still remember it (and still havent forgiven him) - but that was it, too. Directly after that (the way I remember it), they drew the line, decided to split up, moved apart. Still a lot of phone fights would ensue (I remember my mom just pulling the plug out in the end), but the decision was made, and they split us equal time, etc. But that was in the late seventies, they were progressive, emancipated folks, divorce was not a taboo (though they were the first, a bunch of couples around us was to follow them the few years after). What if you're from a place where divorce is much further away? I dunno.)
I've been in a fight (once, twice?) where my gf said such mean things - to my perception, anyway (I'm sure I said mean things too) - I got so angry, so bottled up - and she saw my frustration, my rage, and yelled "go on, hit me!". I never did. But then I'm pretty articulate myself too - I got verbage of my own. How does it end up with folks where one partner is very articulate/verbal, and the other is pretty incompetent in that field, and the meanness and fights are on?
Yuck <tears away from scenario>. Humans are capable of such - fuckedupness.
I do think theres a difference between verbal and physical abuse though, and one cant ever be an excuse for the other. (But) I also think there's a lot of two-way abusive relationships, while we tend to only hear about the victim/perpetrator thing. I know both my ex and I believe we were in an abusive relationship in some ways - mutually abusive, that is - even if there was never physical violence (tho there was breaking things - and I still remember about individual things that were broken).
Yep - dangerous relationships need for something big to change - or they will remain dangerous.
It IS hard to walk away from an argument - look at politics here!!! (Actually, I find it way easier to keep my temper and argue fair IRL than in politics here - but I have never been - for any length of time - in a relationship that was abusive at all - and when I was in one for a bit, it was casual, and the abuse was verbal - so I prolly do not really understand. But I did say the worst thing I have ever said in a relationship to that person - cos I felt so bludgeoned by HIS words....hmmmmmm)
There is a theory around in the trauma field about some of the chronically abusive relationships - you know, where someone ALWAYS has abusive partners - that our neurology is "set" by the experience of chronic over-arousal (as occurs in many homes where wee kidlets grow up with ongoing poor attachment, or frank abuse, or witnessing violence and abuse frequently) and anything less than this is perceived as sub-normal and hence folk seek arousal - by any means. There is also thought to be a special rush when the violence happens - you know - like when a storm finally breaks? - and then there is the experience of the make-up/buy-back phase - also very arousing. (I mean general arousal, here - not specifically sexual - arousal has a technical meaning in psychology and such - though sexual is by no means excluded!)
This stuff (and I haven't read the full explication of this yet) does help make sense of the really chronic stuff, where you can see both partners in a sort of toxic dance, where each knows the steps.
This is only a sub-set of violent relationships, btw. Many people have only one violent partner in their whole lives.
And it is just theory.
But the neurological understanding advances being made now are proving very helpful in understanding all sorts of seemingly weird patterns - in a whole lot of areas.
Everyone has a choice concerning the way he or she wants to live his or her life.
People choose to get married or live together, but that choice does not mean that an individual must endure abuse, verbal or physical.
I, for one, would never give my man a tongue lashing. It's not my job to verbally reprimand him for whatever transgression that he may have committed. I can tell him how I feel -- calmly -- but I would never resort to yelling or name-calling. Verbally lashing out is hardly an endearing quality.
If my partner verbally abused me, I wouldn't tolerate it. I would not fight fire with fire. I would leave.
I don't understand verbal abuse -- I don't want any part of it.
The reason my relationship works is because we both treat each other with love and respect -- ALWAYS.
If anyone is in a relationship where the dynamics are so bad that the people involved think they have the right to yell, scream, throw objects, and/or wrestle each other to the ground, my advice is LEAVE. You don't have to live like that; why would you want to?
dlowan wrote:There is a theory around in the trauma field about some of the chronically abusive relationships [..] that our neurology is "set" by the experience of chronic over-arousal (as occurs in many homes where wee kidlets grow up with ongoing poor attachment, or frank abuse, or witnessing violence and abuse frequently) and anything less than this is perceived as sub-normal and hence folk seek arousal - by any means. There is also thought to be a special rush when the violence happens - you know - like when a storm finally breaks? - and then there is the experience of the make-up/buy-back phase - also very arousing.
Yep - I can see - how, in this person's life, there is always drama - always some kind of drama, something that the disappointment / frustration / anger / feeling of being invalidated focuses on, coalesces around. Never stable. As if, like - if you're so intrinsically trained to analyse and tackle threat or problem - if thats what you
had to do - then you will analyse, find and tackle it always - even if sometimes you need to create it first. Dunno.
Also - the caution that I would insist on - initially insisted on - in how you talk to each other, your loved one - she considered it repressive - something that alienated her from herself, her feelings - blamed me for that. But i just couldnt stand the shouting, always. She blames it on class/culture, too (us anal Dutch who cant handle open expression of anger). And when the door is open - once shouting is an accepted form, even something thats put down as positive (thats how you get to talk about something) - then, yeah, the door is open, you start going through it. Shout back too, and so on. I dunno. I dont think it is (positive) - I think forcing yourself to not (shout) - to voice your things another way - could be a good first step to - I dunno, recognize and respect each other's boundaries - how the other is
not part of you, a separate person, or something. Dunno.
Sorry, hope I'm not taking this thread off-track.
I'll join Brooke in praise, btw - recently, three things you wrote, almost in an aside, dlowan - really insightful. Copied it down.
Tenoch wrote:I know how parents treat you as a kid molds how you will be to your kids. But, how much can we blame on our parents. Not all abused kids grow to abuse their own. When can people stop blaming their parents and take personal responsibility.
Tenoch, this annoys me. Did you feel I was denying personal responsibility in my post, or are you speaking of someone else? Did I say all abused kids grow up to abuse their own?
It annoys me because when I was an infant just home from the hospital, my father locked himself & tiny me in a room so he could stick me with diaper pins, just for fun. When I was learning to walk, my father would hold my outstretched hands over my head and slap my face, just for fun. I was tied to a bed and raped by my father when I was four. Well, it goes on like this (oh, did I mention the time he poured gasoline all over me and threatened me with a match?) until I was 9, and my mother divorced him.
It annoys me because, until I stopped speaking to my mother years ago, she said, "Oh, things weren't so bad....You can't blame me for your problems...." She has never once in all these years said, simply, "I am sorry."
It annoys me because I have never abused any person or critter. You've no idea how much effort, how many years of therapy, drugs, and just plain hard work it took for me to recover from this nightmare of a childhood.
And it really annoys me because my parents had FIVE children. Let's see, 2 are dead (one of them blew her brains out after years of being physically abused by men), one is dying of AIDS, one is gay and hasn't had a lover in over 20 years, and then there's me. And guess what....at 43, I'm the youngest, and the only one to have ever married. None of us has ever had children.
Please, Tenoch, think before you write.
dlowan wrote: There is a theory around in the trauma field about some of the chronically abusive relationships - you know, where someone ALWAYS has abusive partners - that our neurology is "set" by the experience of chronic over-arousal (as occurs in many homes where wee kidlets grow up with ongoing poor attachment, or frank abuse, or witnessing violence and abuse frequently) and anything less than this is perceived as sub-normal and hence folk seek arousal - by any means. There is also thought to be a special rush when the violence happens - you know - like when a storm finally breaks? - and then there is the experience of the make-up/buy-back phase - also very arousing. (I mean general arousal, here - not specifically sexual - arousal has a technical meaning in psychology and such - though sexual is by no means excluded!)
I'm glad to hear, dlowan, this theory is getting out more, and I really hope research continues in this area. My sister was in abusive relationships from the start, and no prescription drug helped her at all.
I think it's very possible her tendencies became "hard-wired" during childhood. I watched her fight for her life for Years, and no amount of effort on her part (or ours) seemed able to stop her from choosing abusive partners.
No doubt Brooke has known women like this, too. And some of the ones Brooke knew are, like my sister, dead.
