"Have it all" backlash

That is truly an excellent observation shewolf!

Even the books about what to do on a rainy day include a little "skills learned" type section.

We hit an interesting dilemna the other day:

We were at the big zoo sandbox playing with the other kids and all the mommies were doing the "SHARE! SHARE!" bit. One mommy called her daughter over to a picnic table to come eat her pizza.

Mo decided that she had to SHARE her pizza.

I found myself in the curious prediciment of having to explain why the girl no longer had to SHARE.

Where's the dang book that tells me how to do that?

Boomer--

The answer is, "They are having a private picnic and we weren't invited."

If you know the pizza people, add, "This time".

If the pizza people are strangers, don't hold out hope.

Ahhhhh....

THERE'S the book.

Thank you!

Why yes Boom, it was in Noddy chapter 3. :-)
A book we all wish we had.

I had a conversation with Mr Wolf just 5 minutes ago about his idea of the UBEr mom and his take ont he vitamin B lady.....

interesting
I have to put bean to bed in a bout an hour so when I am done I will write about his thoughts.

Will be interested in what he has to say.

My favorite books are the ones that say "You know what you're doing. Here's some of the scientific basis for the fact that you know what you're doing." (Like the great stuff about Motherese that I quoted to Shewolf recently.) Kinda like "trust, but verify".

Aside from my general early childhood education classes, "The Baby Book" and "The Scientist in the Crib" are the ones who have done that for me the most -- who knew that "peekaboo" had so much to recommend it?

"The Scientist in the Crib" especially could be summarized with Shewolf's sentence (go play), but I personally find the specifics of how it works fascinating.

I'm curious too as to the hewolfs reaction.

I've heard you say such good things about the "Scientist...." book but I've never picked it up because I missed the crib years.

Do you still think it would be a worthwhile read for me?

have you seen the NYT book review?

(i may have missed a reference along the way)

link

I'm kinda torn as an outside observer, cause on the one hand I hear stories of parents who do such a good job parenting and doing such a deliberative job - they've read, they're doing the Right Things, they make sure they know what the Right Things are - but then, when I look at my sister and her hubbie, I havent ever seen them look into any book - I mean, I'm sure they've read some stuff some time, but its not like they plan and monitor and study - they just seem to be at ease with themselves and their instinct. And when I look at my nephew of one-and-a-half, he seems to just live in this wholly safe, at ease environment ... and somehow, I got the impression thats actually better. But then there's a lot of parents who dont have that kind of natural self-confidence or something - who just need more guidance - I know I would - so I dunno. But I really like what Noddy said in terms of historical comparison - how moms of old had to do so many other things too - I think sometimes today's kids get way too much concentrated and deliberate attention and effort. Wonder what that will do.

(Cute thread, btw. Instructive & all, even tho I dont have any kid myself. I was at a friend's last night, and she was babysitting on the neighbour's nine-month-old - by babyphone that is - but eventually he did wake up so we went there and she carried him back to her apartment, where he was just gazing at me and her and everything, spellbound and curious and quickly recovering from crying to smiling - would just look at me and, even if I didnt make any faces, start to smile - well, you know - nine-month olds dont really smile yet - just beam and kinda grin, all bubbly-happy kinda ensconced in his little sleeping-bag-thingie - so cute! I remember when my nephew started laughing (like, out loud) for the first time - was so great!)

Ok.
So I started off the conversation with " you will never believe what I have been noticing about child care and parenting.. , ( then i gave the findings I have posted earlier about the child care books and thier titles) And i asked him, what do you think of the UBER mom ? So he asked me to elaborate and I read him the Vitamin B woman story.

His first statement... " I agree with the vitamin lady" Go on...
( forgive me for details, but I am going to attempt to quote him on this )
" Sugar depleates many vitamins in the body. Children shouldnt be on overload when it comes to sugar. regulating thier exposure to sugary substances and the thought that they are OK is a parents job. Too many kids have alot of sugar in thier diets and people slap the ADD or ADHD label on them with out first looking at thier diets. Sugar isnt the prime reason , but I guarantee you it is 60% of the cases today that have been labled ADD!!!"

So I ask him what he thinks of ' saturating your child'. And i worded it something like this : " So you are saying that a few minutes of innocent play that may include a simple referrance to sugar is wrong? What I get from your statement is , that even in play , you have to control what they are exposed to. Wich I agree.. but in real life people eat sugar. In real life people order cake, in real life your daughter will eat sugar. How is a referrance to cake bad? "

He said that parents have to take responsibility for what they teach thier kids. And that too many parents take a very laid back stance on what comes out of thier kids mouths and what is a ' common' game between young kids. Even in play we hear and rememeber things WAY into adult hood. And if you are not enforcing what you teach at home 24-7 you might as well preach to the wind. He said that he would be equally upset and wanting to correct the topic if it were a steak that was ordered. Of course, I asked why... He said that it was because he didnt want JIllian growing up to be a meat eating high cholesterol heart attack waiting to happen and that if he tells her about the health risks of certain foods.. he has to tell her all the time. So I stressed.. again.... even in a fantasy game? At play time? ANd he said yes. That was a kicker to me. ! but.. i will go on..

He then gave some examples as to why he felt this sort of behavior for parents was important. His father told him one time that something he made wasnt going to do what he wanted to do and he still remembers that today.
He made a paper air plane as a child and took along time, alot of tape and plenty of fantasy to make this plane. He ran down stairs to show his dad his " space ship " His father said, It looks like a big airplane. Can you fly it? Can you throw it? " he said, no. It is a space ship. His father commented " that wouldnt make it through space.. laughed and left.
Mr wolfs whole point was that , his father wasnt being mean, or rude, it was just that little comments that an adult seems to think nothing of can weigh on a child forever. Comments from OTHER kids do the same thing. So it is a parents job to intercept when necessary to do thier best not to allow these seemingly simple comments to cloud thier basic teachings.
( ok, im thinking at this point... that makes sence.. a little more then when he started....)
So he goes on to talk about the UBER mom and how it is actually a good thing to do. His take on a parent who teaches a child in alsmot everything they do was pretty neat. He said that kids are sponges. They are learning from the moment they take thier first breath. And it isnt until someone else tells them that learning ISNT fun that they truly do enjoy it. Learning is a great thing to kids because it isnt a task, it is exploring. And parents who take advantage of that desire to explore are smart in doing so. He used Beethoven for an example...
He said, you think beethoven HATED playing the piano? No. He did it all his life. His parents allowed him to explore the piano as a child and encouraged him to keep exploring. That isnt forced learning, to a child that was fun. I asked him " how do you know it was fun for him?! Maybe he was drilled 24-7! his responce.. He did it as an adult.. As an adult, he would have stopped doing what his parents were MAKING him do if he didnt like it. He would have never found paino playing to be enjoyable if his parents didnt allow that exploration. And if that is what you call an UBER mom or dad, I would hope that we all are UBER.
He then said that it is truly unhealthy to be lost in your child. Your child should never rely on you completely for everything. They need room to exlpore and learn on thier own. You just need to be there to guide it.
And if that means that yo uhave to walk on egg shells until the child is 6 or 8, or 10 , and correct the things they say, do, see, etc.. then DO IT. That is your job as a parent. Children are blank slates with permanent writting. You can cover other writting with new writting but the slate stays the same with all the marks you put there.



Hmm...

Im still not sure what I think he was trying to say. I can understand his take on some things, but I feel like he is sitting on the fence about the be an UBER parent or not..
what do you think?

( sorry for the mispellings and mistakes.)
I am trying not to use the edit button to help the forum run better..

Oh, thanks, Beth!! Great review. I agree with that more heartily than I agree with the original article or the (entire) blog article. (Though I agree with the parts DrewDad exerpted, and Shulevitz makes a similar point here:)



boomerang, I find "The Scientist in the Crib" interesting not only in terms of parenting per se, but it's just cool. It's one of those books that make you gasp and say "really!?" and "wow!" a lot. (Well, me anyway, but I'm kind of a geek that way, especially when it comes to stuff about how brains work. I mean aren't brains just the coolest? :-))

Anyway, a lot of it extends beyond the crib, or has interesting implications when you look backwards. I recommend it highly.

hmm
i will show that to mr wolf when it arrives. he needs to see it after his ideas surfaced. he might love it

I think I understand what hewolf is getting at. When food is a value, that makes it more complicated. I think I would enforce some of my values if I noticed significant disruptions thereof on the playground -- if a parent were organizing a re-enactment of the Rape of the Sabine Women I might step in. (Lame example, I'm tired. :-))

This brings me to another repeat point though, that part of what I worry about with how things are going -- the death of the daytime neighborhood -- is the death of unsupervised play. I think it's important for development to process and work out some things without any adult filters. If an adult is there and aware of what's happening, letting something happen means it's OK. Not letting it happen means it's not OK. However, I think there are a lot of things that should not be getting an adult seal of approval which nonetheless have their place -- taking physical risks, trying on "bad" personas, some sexual discussion/ experimentation (some) etc.

Oh Soz's post re: "overparenting" reminded me of something else I wanted to say. Something about the - well, the different things that could be grouped under that label I guess.

Like, I consider these two things of totally different orders:

1) Employers gearing the right arrangements and work climate that allows mothers as well as fathers to work part-time, to schedule work around child-needs, combined perhaps with company childcare centers, generous maternity leave, etc.

2) The style of overparenting thats been described in this thread, fuelled by (overly?) high demands/expectations both from the child and the parent.

Like, again also looking at my sis and her husband, who both work part time so that theres always someone there with the kid, I'm all for making time to be with children. In America with its 80-hour weeks work culture and expensive private childcare system that must be all the more hard than here. Whereas it should be really appreciated and encouraged.

But I see that as a separate question from that about how you then spend that time with the kid(s) - the style, all the things mentioned in this thread about Vitamin and Skills Promoting Activities Mum vs Let 'em Play and Have Their Own Time Mum, so to say.

Make sense?

(OK, and now I'll butt out)

It does make sence Nimh, and dont butt out.. your opinions are wonderful and WELCOME. hehe
Just because you dont have boobs doesnt mean you dont fit in! Trust me!!

You are right about the situation here in america, and let me elaborate..
Most companies.. actualy ALMOST all companies stress the ' attendance' issue above work ethic . If you are at work everyday of the year that you are scheduled you get a bonus. Usually a cash bonus. Now what does that say to a new parent who is now learning how expencive it is to have a baby?
That thier families are now in the back seat when it comes to work because they can earn just that much more if they push thier families TOO to allow themselves not to miss work for that extra money.
What I mean is, some companies will GIVE you the hours you have for vacation/sick leave etc.. and ifyou dont take them by the end of the year, the hours you have built up will be paid to you at your regular hourly rate.
Hmm. nice incentive, but it is a subtle assbackwards HINT that you should be at work first, family second. Alot of these things go on all over america. I think we are the UBER company country. Over achieve, OVER work, and OVER the top you go. In that , there is no room for family.

I agree with hewolf that nutrition is important and kids can't be healthy on a diet of junk BUT

I remember a "60 Minutes" story from a while back where people studying nutrition and children learned that kids who were denied sugar could not resist it when it was available and they would gorge themselves on it. Kids who were not always denied sugar took a much more moderate approach to it. (The study involved putting a kid in a room filled with sugary snacks and telling them to have whatever they wanted. Kids who had been denied sugar never stopped eating.) I'll have to see if I can round up that study....

My point is -- moderation is much better and healthier goal than abstinance. When you think about it, Americans became obese right along with the advent of diet foods. We fill ourselves with food that doesn't satisfy.

I think we often take the same approach to learning -- people show off their two year old's ability to sing the ABC but ABC doesn't really MEAN anything to them.

Speaking personally, Mo can sing his ABCs but he doesn't really see it as an acomplishment. Yesterday, he finally figured out how to propell the swing on his own and he was absolutely overjoyed. He practiced and he practiced and he practiced and then he showed me a hundred times and then we had to go get our neighbor who is kind of the neighborhood grandpa and Mo had to show him a hundred times.

Getting that swing to start up, go high, and stop was a real accomplishment - something he took great pride in.

And he did it on his own.

Now this doesn't mean that I haven't spent countless hours pushing him on swings all over town.

But really - isn't that what parenting is? Pushing them on the swing till they figure it out for themselves? Encouraging melon but not freaking out over cake? If you never give them the opportunity to decide will they ever learn to make the right decision?

BINGO!
I so agree with that.

Though, i think his point was more the follow up then actually about sugar. He is just passionate about her diet.. Understandably so.

Andyes , denial creates compulsion. I think what Vitamin D lady was doing was just that. Freaking out and acting like one touch/thought/taste of sugar was going to KILL her child.
Oh lord, when her child gets to school and is out from under mommies watchful eye, it will be a sugar over load.
Mr wolfs parents were the opposite. Fed him sugar, sugar, sugar and added mor sugar to his foods. Wich in turn created the eating habits that he now has to fight on a daily basis just to stay healthy. So going from one extreme ( sugar sugar sugar) to the other extreme ( no sugar, dont even think about it) is unhealthy as well. Sugar is a requirement for the immune system. Everything has its place in the diet for body health and balance. And I think anyone who denies ANY type of food is only feeding into this booming problem of obesity.

hmm.. im rambling..
i need coffee.

Thanks for the link to the review, eBeth. I thought it was very well balanced - check out this, look out for this.

And it too recommends "I Don't Know How She Does It". I believe I'll be picking up a copy of it today.

And I'll pick up the "Scientist..." book. I read a lot of stuff about how brains work but mostly from the standpoint of why and how they stop working -- I really got hooked on reading such things when my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimers.

nimh, I've known some of those instinctive parents and boy do I ever envy them. I, sadly, am not one, so I read and I read and I read some more and then I just go outside and swing.

Babysitting by babyphone would land you in jail in America. Does anyone remember the big stink when the Harry Potter lady said something in a interview about parking the stroller outside the coffee shop while she went in to write?

Going from one extreme to another is really common in parenting, especially from people who are trying to correct mistakes. I told the story before of my mom not being allowed to have long hair, and then insisting my hair be long even though the care of it was such a huge hassle and major source of stress.

Moderation in all things.

(That said, I was denied sugar as a kid, and didn't really go overboard. I snuck it occasionally, but not much. Didn't really develop any complexes about it. Which brings us back to another recurring theme -- a lot of kids turn out just fine despite "bad" parenting practices. That doesn't make the bad parenting practices good, it just means that kids are way more resilient and flexible than they're usually given credit for.)