Rice - getting away from "Punish France, ignore Germany..."?

Walter Hinteler wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:

I, too, await a reply that's based on more than opinion and media hype.

You've high standards for the replies of others, haven't you?

Just some facts, Walter, just some facts.

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Yes, what I said: you've high standards for the replies of others.

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McTag wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
What crime? What is your standard for this exceedingly complex judgment?

An excellent post, georgeob1, and certainly a valid question.

I, too, await a reply that's based on more than opinion and media hype.

Not complex, but simple. No need for historical obfuscation.

Iraq did not attack us. We attacked Iraq. That's a crime.

We "attacked" Iraq ... would that be similar to when Saddam "attacked" Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds, the Shiites, George Bush, Sr. and just about anyone who came between himself & personal pleasure?

An interesting choice of words, though, McTag. As I recall, Saddam did nothing but "obfuscate" with the UN "inspectors" for years and years.

But ... as long as we're playing fast & loose with semantics ... many view the "attack" on Iraq as a "liberation" of an oppressed people and the removal of a tyrant who was openly hostile to our government and our way of life. The only crime committed was we didn't have permission from Old Europe.

Looks like we've come full circle again. Laughing

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Yes, what I said: you've high standards for the replies of others.

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WhoodaThunk wrote:

But ... as long as we're playing fast & loose with semantics ...

Shame on you, you little twister. My meaning could not have been clearer.

Quote:

many view the "attack" on Iraq as a "liberation" of an oppressed people and the removal of a tyrant who was openly hostile to our government and our way of life. The only crime committed was we didn't have permission from Old Europe.

Ah, I keep forgetting. We were liberating the oppressed. Right.

And why stop now? Let us attack every regime which is openly opposed to our way of life. May as well go the whole hog. Rolling Eyes

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WhoodaThunk wrote:

But ... as long as we're playing fast & loose with semantics ... many view the "attack" on Iraq as a "liberation" of an oppressed people and the removal of a tyrant who was openly hostile to our government and our way of life. The only crime committed was we didn't have permission from Old Europe

Whooda, you'll find that much of the world does not agree with that perspective. It is a peculiarly American one. Emphasis on the peculiar. Many more oppressed people and opently hostile tyrants out there who seem to have not attracted any attention from the U.S.

Much of the media in the rest of the world still refers to U.S. action in Iraq as an invasion - not as a war or a liberation.

It is a long way off from the true story of this action coming out. I can't even begin to guess what the real bottom line was. I do know that when I posted here several years ago that I hoped WMD would be found in Iraq that I meant it - because it would to some degree justify the U.S. invasion.

In the meantime, the Bush administration is busily schmoozing "Old Europe", and you're going to have to learn to deal with the change in direction on that one.

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On Condi's tour, she has repeatedly backed Bush's foreign policy toward Iraq--and told the rest of the world it's time to quit carping and be about the business of helping Iraq as it embraces democracy.

If you call that schmoozing... Someone had to tell everybody to grow up.

(Some idiot European newspaper called Condi--"coquettish". That should clear up any questions as to their ability to read people... I like her, but hell, she is the most sexless person I can think of. She's sort of the conservative Hillary in that aspect.)

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It's been interesting to watch clips of Ms. Rice's travels on TV-5 (the French network I watch most often), and to read the coverage in the German online mags of the perceived changes to Rumsfeld.

the new style of the old rumsfeld He's been positively giggly in Munich. Bizarre.

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It is so weird to have the same people, and suddenly so much press in Europe about how they're different.

It's sort of like they're giving themselves an excuse to soften the anti-Americanism.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the Oil For Food program--the impending spotlight on the guilty--and their concern we may close the thing down. It would significantly impede the gravy train for many of them.

Will be interesting to see how this all goes...

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Dr. Rice has brains, grace and strength and is now one of the most powerful women in the world.

Just thinking about this incredibly intelligent and articulate woman confronting the doddering old heads of Europe makes me smile and smile and smile with pleasure. Smile

<Glee. Sheer glee...with a bit of satisfaction thrown in for good measure>

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You don't know much about European politics, Just Wonders, if you think they're doddering oldies.

I was just thinking about the phrase I hear from lawyers all the time ... reaching out. They're always telling me to watch who's reaching out.

I'm watching, and I can see who is using their passport and reaching out.

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Chirac dodders. I saw.

She did great in the ME, too! I think they're going to put her up in '08.

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Ah, well, the ones I had in mind are both old and both doddering, although I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder Smile

I thank God for George Bush selecting Dr. Rice every single day Smile

There's no telling what slimy deals would have been made with the Euros if Kerry had been elected.

<shudders>

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Lash - I agree with '08. That's why Boxer was trying to bring her down a peg in the hearings. Didn't work. Only made Boxer look like the fool she is.

http://www.rice2008.com/

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McTag wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:
But ... as long as we're playing fast & loose with semantics ...

Shame on you, you little twister. My meaning could not have been clearer.

Mctag, save your condescending tongue lashings for someone else. If you accuse my country of committing a "crime" and then offer no basis to support that charge other than your left-clinging bias, then, yes, you are playing fast and loose with semantics. The onus is on you to prove your accusation.

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ehBeth wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:
But ... as long as we're playing fast & loose with semantics ... many view the "attack" on Iraq as a "liberation" of an oppressed people and the removal of a tyrant who was openly hostile to our government and our way of life. The only crime committed was we didn't have permission from Old Europe

Whooda, you'll find that much of the world does not agree with that perspective. It is a peculiarly American one. Emphasis on the peculiar. Many more oppressed people and opently hostile tyrants out there who seem to have not attracted any attention from the U.S.

In the meantime, the Bush administration is busily schmoozing "Old Europe", and you're going to have to learn to deal with the change in direction on that one.

EhBeth, I know that much of the world doesn't agree with that perspective, yet it cannot be denied that it was an objective of the mission. You just can't separate the end game in Iraq from the previous 15 years of history in that region. Tell me that the American goal is this operation was to "attack" a defenseless country and grab their oil? Rolling Eyes

Likewise, the liberal spin on Dr. Rice's trip abroad is a tad peculiar, too, but expected. Anything resembling rapprochement with our difficult "allies" (by Rice or especially by Rumsfeld) is seen as schmoozing and wooing, a sort of begging forgiveness from Old Europe. Those who believe that should actually read the transcripts of the speeches.

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McTag wrote:

And why stop now? Let us attack every regime which is openly opposed to our way of life. May as well go the whole hog.

BTW, isn't that old line about ready for mothballs? You couldn't find a taker for that in junior high debate club. :wink:

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McTag wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
What crime? What is your standard for this exceedingly complex judgment?

An excellent post, georgeob1, and certainly a valid question.

I, too, await a reply that's based on more than opinion and media hype.

Not complex, but simple. No need for historical obfuscation.

Iraq did not attack us. We attacked Iraq. That's a crime.

Well at least there is a standard here. Progress! However. Iraq did attack Kuwait without provocation or justification, and later failed to abide by the agreement which concluded our successful campaign to drive them them out. Our case was that we attacked in 2003 to enforce an armistice agreement concluded with Iraq after driving them out of Kuwait to redress what was itself an obvious Iraqi crime. Sounds convincing to me.

There was no media hype in my earlier arguments, and what you term "historical obsfucation" was not obsfucation at all - instead it was an attempt to apply some of the texture of reality and historical fact to what appear to me to be simplistic, logically inadequate (and therefore ultimately intenable) arguments and sweeping jnudgements.

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Lash wrote:

(Some idiot European newspaper called Condi--"coquettish". That should clear up any questions as to their ability to read people... I like her, but hell, she is the most sexless person I can think of. She's sort of the conservative Hillary in that aspect.)

Well, I don't know, how much of Rice's visit you followed.

I really can understand that some could see her 'coquettish'. (And I can't follow you, when you connect this with 'sex':

Quote:

Main Entry: co·quett·ish Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: ()k|ked.ish, -eti-, -sh
Function: adjective
: having the air or nature of a coquette or coquetry : practicing or exhibiting coquetry <heartless, coquettish women, who put self first and played with fire -- Margaret A. Barnes>

)

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co-quet-ry: 1. the behavior or act of a coquette; flirting. 2. the act of trifling or dallying.

co-quette: 1. a girl or woman who merely from vanity tries to get men's attention and admiration.

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Rice - getting away from "Punish France, ignore Germany..."?

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