Rice - getting away from "Punish France, ignore Germany..."?

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03.02.2005

Rice to Prepare Germany for Bush

Far from ignoring Germany as she once famously suggested, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will discuss the war in Iraq and tensions with Iran in Berlin on Friday ahead of her boss's visit later this month.

Rice's brief trip to Berlin, part of a major fence-mending exercise in Europe after the divisions sparked by the US-led war in Iraq, is mainly aimed at smoothing the way for a visit to Germany by US President George W. Bush on Feb. 23.

But her first major diplomatic outing as secretary of state will also enable her to establish better ties with Germany, which has, through Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, played an important role in the so-called Greater Middle East.

While he will be in Southeast Asia during Rice's visit, their talks in Washington last week suggest that international efforts to persuade Iran to give up its suspected nuclear arms program will be a major topic when Rice meets with German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder.

In an interview on Tuesday, Rice said the US appreciated the European effort to reach a diplomatic solution to the crisis but did not want to rule out other options.

Fischer urged closer cooperation between Europe and the United States to deal with the danger that a nuclear-armed Iran would represent and, in particular, asked Washington to become more involved diplomatically.

"For us it is important that we do all we can to bring together the positions in an intense dialogue across the Atlantic so that we can make diplomatic progress," he said.

"We don't want an Iran with nuclear weapons," he continued, adding that it could lead to an arms race in one of the most dangerous regions of the world.

International cooperation in Iraq?

On Iraq, Rice faces a virtually impossible task in trying to convince Germany, one of the major opponents of the war, to play a major role and will certainly not receive any pledge for troops.

"Punish France, ignore Germany and forgive Russia," she was quoted as saying in 2003 about the war opponents. Rice has since backed away from the formula and on Tuesday predicted a new spirit of international cooperation for Iraq but refused to speak of a US exit strategy. She said the goal was to get Iraq up and running quickly and gradually scale back the American presence.

"I don't think we want to talk in terms of exit strategies," Rice said. "I think we should ask ourselves what can we do now to -- as quickly as possible -- make the Iraqis self-sufficient but also give them the support that they need."

She hailed the Iraq election as opening the door to greater international involvement in the country. President George W. Bush, boosted by the Iraqi election, will use his State of the Union speech Wednesday to seek global support for Iraq, as he lays out top priorities of his second term.

Germany remains firm

Germany has stood firm on its Iraq policy.

"Together with its partners Germany is ready to further support the political process in Iraq," Fischer said. Germany is helping to train Iraq's military outside the country.

"Our position is clear," Fischer said in Brussels on Monday. "While others are talking, we have been giving training, and we will continue to give training. So long as the security situation is as it is, this is not a question of principle, it is a very practical question."

It is also a question of resources. Germany has more troops posted abroad on peacekeeping and anti-terror missions than any other country, bar the United States, and any further deployments would probably be opposed in parliament.

Israel and Palestine

Finally, another of Fischer's prime concerns, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, is also likely to figure high on the agenda of the talks between Rice, who will also visit Israel and the West Bank, and Schröder.

Germany has been perhaps the key European broker in the Middle East, with Fischer adopting the role of an interlocutor who is respected by all sides.

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Europe 1st Stop On Rice Trip

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" ... Of all the allies, France made the most strenuous effort to prevent the Iraq invasion in March 2003. Nearly two years later, just over half of people in France had unfavorable views of Americans generally, and a majority said they were disappointed by Mr. Bush's re-election, AP-Ipsos polling found."

That quote alone validates my vote for Bush in '04.

Who cares how many French view Americans favorably? Old Europe be damned.

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This is diplomacy - not friendship. Relations between the U.S. and France will likely never be truly restored in our lifetimes. The situation with Germany is better, but that's not saying much. I doubt very much that Rice's real thoughts and beliefs about the situation have changed at all.

In a similar way it is likely that the antipathy that has motivated Germany and France is also unchanged. We can be cordial with one another, as we certainly should, but the era of western solidarity is over. Relations between the United States and the European powers have returned to their normal, pre 20th century state before the follies that followed our ill-advised entry into WWI. Cordiality, but founded on mutual suspicion and mistrust.

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WhoodaThunk wrote:

Old Europe be damned.

Thanks. We are grateful for your verdict.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:
Old Europe be damned.

Thanks. We are grateful for your verdict.

"Old Europe", my boot! Why do people have to talk in this jargon?

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WhoodaThunk wrote:

" ... Of all the allies, France made the most strenuous effort to prevent the Iraq invasion in March 2003. Nearly two years later, just over half of people in France had unfavorable views of Americans generally, and a majority said they were disappointed by Mr. Bush's re-election, AP-Ipsos polling found."

That quote alone validates my vote for Bush in '04.

Who cares how many French view Americans favorably? Old Europe be damned.

Dont you think your two last paragraphs are really antinomic?

It seems you vote Bush because a majority of French disapprove him!

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"Of all the allies, France made the most strenuous effort to prevent the Iraq invasion in March 2003"

Well hooray for France, then!

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Quote:

Rice to woo Europe under Iran cloud

Fri Feb 4, 2005

By Saul Hudson
LONDON (Reuters) - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will today seek to repair ties with Europe over Iraq but her tough line on Iran risks undermining attempts to heal the rift.

En route to London, where she will meet on Friday with Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Rice made clear the United States was unwilling to become involved in Europe's nuclear arms talks with Iran as the region wants.

"The Iranians know what they need to do. It's not the absence of anybody's involvement that is keeping the Iranians from knowing what they need to do," she told reporters aboard her plane on her first trip as the top U.S. diplomat.

"They need to live up to their obligations, they need to agree to verification inspection, they need to stop trying to hide activities under cover of civilian nuclear power."

Iran -- grouped by President George W. Bush in an "axis of evil" with pre-war Iraq and North Korea -- denies U.S. charges it is pursuing a nuclear bomb. It says its programmes are for peaceful power generation needed to keep up with its growing population.

Some European editorial writers have warned Iran could spark a divisive replay of the American-led Iraq invasion, which caused probably the worst U.S.-European split since World War Two.

While Europe wants more engagement and has negotiated a freeze in some of Tehran's nuclear work, Rice pressed the U.S. tactic of confronting and isolating the Islamic republic by intensifying the Bush administration's tough talk.

"The Iranian regime's human rights behaviour and its behaviour toward its own population is something to be loathed," she said. "I don't think anybody thinks that the unelected mullahs who run that regime are a good thing for either the Iranian people or for the region."

IRAQ POLICY

U.S. anger at the European Union's intention of lifting an arms embargo on China as well as differences over where to try war criminals from Sudan's conflict in Darfur could also cloud Rice's visit to eight European capitals.

But the policy divides come despite improving ties.

Rather than continue a diplomatic spat with Washington over a war that major allies such as Germany and France opposed, European governments have vowed to focus on stabilising Iraq -- especially since Sunday's elections there.

And, in probably the most important foreign policy area to the Europeans, the United States has won applause for its push for peace between Israelis and Palestinians since the death of Yasser Arafat.

"This is now a process that is moving and moving effectively, and as long as it is moving and moving effectively we should be deeply satisfied," said Rice, who also visits Jerusalem and the West Bank on her eight-day trip.

European diplomats hope Rice's trip, which also lays the groundwork for a Bush visit later this month, will finally put an end to the shrill tone in relations over Iraq and allow the sides to seek common ground.

Rice, who visits Germany on Friday too and makes a key speech on shared values in France next week, echoed the conciliatory sentiment.

"Partners are not always going to agree," she said.

"What is important is that we have an atmosphere in which we can express our concerns and do that with partners willing to take each others' concerns into consideration as they make policy decisions."

Source

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Quote:
Rice to woo Europe under Iran cloud

Fri Feb 4, 2005

By Saul Hudson

Source

The author mischaracterized the truth (and even the essence of his own report) in his choice of a title. Rice is not "wooing" Europe at all; there is no cloud over this enterprise; or any longer any fog obscuring the visibility between us.

The encounters among Rice and the European officials will have all the affection that characterized the meetings of Talleyrand and Napoleon, and later Tsar Alexander. Whatever close embraces occur will be done only to be better able to detect the "partner's" every move.

Europe once again wants to emesh the U.S. in yet another prolongued 'process' in which we are induced to, in effect, negotiate against ourselves in yet another meaningless, useless "dialogue" with an utterly intransigent opponent. The remedy for Iran is for the theocratic gerontocracy that oppresses it and threatens us, to fall. What is truly antinomic here is the European preference for a continued dialogue which merely props up and sustains a hostile, inept regime that is otherwise on the verge of collapse.

If the Old Europeans detect a cloud over the visit it will be just a manifestation of the one they use to hide themselves from the reality about them. They aren't being wooed, they are being watched closely.

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georgeob1 wrote:

This is diplomacy - not friendship

Or as my hero Sebastian Haffner put it, "States don't have friends, they have interests." I think you're dead on here, George. Europe, including France and Germany, is unlikely to either promote or impede US interests much anytime soon. The same is true vice versa. So why would our governments spend much time shmoosing with each other?

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georgeob1 wrote:

The author mischaracterized the truth (and even the essence of his own report) in his choice of a title. Rice is not "wooing" Europe at all; there is no cloud over this enterprise; or any longer any fog obscuring the visibility between us.
...
If the Old Europeans detect a cloud over the visit ...

Just chipping in that the quoted report is from reuters.uk

Thomas wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
So why would our governments spend much time shmoosing with each other?

40 mins Schröder vs. Rice today :wink:

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I believe there is a motivation on both sides to stay close to one another.

However this is done in keeping with Machiavelli's advice to his prince - to stay close to his enemies, and even closer to his "friends".

Schroeder hasn't changed his assessment of what plays well with the attitudes of his own electorate. I can assure you that the Bush Administration has no expectations or delusions of support, or even friendship, from either Germany or France.

I also suspect that my European friends here (and I do mean that sincerely) underestimate the very significant, and I believe lasting, change that has occurred among the attitudes of a growing majority of Americans towards what has been called "Old Europe". My impression is that a similar change occurred in Europe a couble of decades ago, but its manifestations were obscured by other events. The situation is now mutual, reciprocal and there for all to see. It will likely be a defining factor for the unfolding events of the next half century at least.

I also believe that Rice's earlier remark, "ignore Germany, punish France" referred to her recommendation that we work to deny Germany the independent prominence its population and economic power would otherwise merit as long as it chooses to remain in the Franco-German axis (Chirac's poodle), and that we, calmly and over time, look for ways to injure France. I see nothing that would change either the wisdom of that recommendation, the evident intent of our government to act in keeping with that prescription, or the growing public support for it among the American people.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

40 mins Schröder vs. Rice today :wink:

http://www.turkishpress.com/world/SGE.HWD44.040205193507.photo00.quicklook.default-245x165.jpg

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I dread the picture of her standing with that pimp, Chirac. But, we need new bugs in the French State Department. Mayhap she'll do a Mata Hari on them!

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I think the Administration has done all this very well. Concealed its contempt and willingly adopted the conciliatory posture needed to superficially satisfy those who insist that it is we who have misbehaved. This puts the heat on Chirac and Schroeder who themselves can afford neither to reject nor fully accept the overtures. I suspect there will be a few delicious moments in store for Condoleza.

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Francis wrote:

WhoodaThunk wrote:
" ... Of all the allies, France made the most strenuous effort to prevent the Iraq invasion in March 2003. Nearly two years later, just over half of people in France had unfavorable views of Americans generally, and a majority said they were disappointed by Mr. Bush's re-election, AP-Ipsos polling found."

That quote alone validates my vote for Bush in '04.

Who cares how many French view Americans favorably? Old Europe be damned.

Dont you think your two last paragraphs are really antinomic?

It seems you vote Bush because a majority of French disapprove him!

Be hilarious if a vote were not such a serious thing.

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dlowan wrote:

Francis wrote:
WhoodaThunk wrote:
" ... Of all the allies, France made the most strenuous effort to prevent the Iraq invasion in March 2003. Nearly two years later, just over half of people in France had unfavorable views of Americans generally, and a majority said they were disappointed by Mr. Bush's re-election, AP-Ipsos polling found."

That quote alone validates my vote for Bush in '04.

Who cares how many French view Americans favorably? Old Europe be damned.

Dont you think your two last paragraphs are really antinomic?

It seems you vote Bush because a majority of French disapprove him!

Be hilarious if a vote were not such a serious thing.

I take my vote quite seriously.

While I certainly do not approve of everything GWB represents, his views are more representative of my values than anything the opposing party put forth.

Personally, I resented Bruce Springsteen, Hollywood, & Co. making their vacuous cameo appearances in our "fly-over country" to persuade us ignorant Midwesterners to vote for a candidate who bent so easily in the wind. I do not approve of abortion on demand, I was not impressed with either candidate's war record, and I could make a list of issues a half mile long that made "the difference" to me on Election Day. As a result, I really don't give a flying f--- what anyone outside the borders of this country thinks of me, my country, or its president ... particularly when the actions of those across The Continent are so hypocrisy-laden.

"Old Europe" refers to the sleazy mentality of privately cutting profitable deals (arms, oil, etc.) with a despot while publicly claiming the high ground. Old Europe sucked the planet into two world wars. I hope New Europe prevails, but Old Europe certainly has been in the driver's seat in recent years.

Why are the Europeans so thin-skinned when they are so eager to publicly trash this side of the Atlantic?

I read the comments of the woman who was in charge of the French contingent aiding the tsunami victims in SE Asia. She criticized the Americans for arriving in overwhelming force and then "boasting loudly as usual." What the hell was that? France has the largest national inferiority complex on the planet and we catch grief for that, too?

So, yes, Old Europe be damned ... I feel the urge to shower at the very mention of the topic.

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Damn! Give that woman a beer!

France sucks.

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Oh, I think votes are very serious things. There is a growing majority of Americans who support the Republican agenda and candidates for public office. The social & political coalition that had for decades given liberal Democrats a dominant role in our legislature is nearly gone, and a new growing one supports the Republicans and - President Bush.

Very little of this has much do do with France or Europe generally. However, it is also true that, in a separate and distinct process, U.S. public perceptions of our European allies have undergone a sea change, from which I believe there will be no returning. Francis has exploited an awkward juxtaposition in the somewhat intemperate post above to make an effective and wry criticism, but I think he knows very well the real truth of the matter.

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Rice - getting away from "Punish France, ignore Germany..."?

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