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Rice - getting away from "Punish France, ignore Germany..."?

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 04:53 pm
Why should I bother. I've already found you a link that states the US is concerned that the EU is making noise about relaxing the embargo. Hell, I think the article I linked said that Fischer and Chirac have personally and publicly said they want to lift it, and other nations argued them down.

I don't think if I found Chirac holding a sign that read..."I want to lift the embargo", you would accept it.

<broil>

Let me go see about this.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 04:54 pm
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=609506
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WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 04:58 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
WhoodaThunk wrote:
Lash - I give you high marks for trying to meet Walter on his terms, but I don't think he'll ever believe anything unless he finds it himself ... or ... if an errant Chinese missile lands on his cupcake bearing the inscription "Made in Europe in 2005."

Probably not even then ...


When did we meet the last time that you know me so well?


Does "kokett" ring a bell?
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 04:59 pm
Whooda - I don't pay for subscriptions. Could you post that article?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 04:59 pm
It's irrelevant what Chirac and Schröder say when it comes to the European Council.

Only the European Council can lift the embargo. It can only lift the embargo when all 25 members agree.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 05:00 pm

Quote:
The EU embargo on arms exports to China is likely to be lifted in the next six months despite US objections, UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has said.
Source :wink:
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 05:04 pm
Gentlemen--please stop trying to do propaganda for the Red Europeans!!!

<made myself laugh>

But, really. Why contort into such a German pretzel...? We all see what is going on.
--------------

Bush departs for Europe later on Sunday, a day after the United States and Japan declared Taiwan was a common security issue amid the concerns about China's threat to invade the island if it declares independence.

Washington and Tokyo also urged China "to improve transparency of its military affairs" in a joint statement Saturday amid concerns an EU plan to lift an arms embargo against Beijing could upset the region's military balance.
(This was a joint statement. It happened.~L)

The European Union imposed the arms embargo after China's military crushed the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests.

By removing it, the US fears Beijing will have greater access to high-tech weapons systems that could be used to thwart any US intervention in the Taiwan issue, said Richard Fisher, deputy head of the Washington-based International Assessment and Strategy Center.

"As both Japan and the US begin to seriously prepare for a real war on the Taiwan Strait, it is simply sickening that European leaders are proposing to take any steps that would help to enable (China's) dictatorship kill (Taiwan's) democracy," Fisher told AFP.

Despite the embargo, EU companies were already involved in China's military modernization and lifting the embargo would only heighten existing cooperation, he said.

While Britain's Surrey Satellite Technologies Ltd. was enabling new Chinese military anti-satellite capabilities, advanced Rolls Royce turbo engines were powering China's homemade JH-7A fighter bomber and Eurocopter was helping China build combat and transport helicopters, Fisher said.

German diesel engines were outfitted on China's fleet of conventional "Song" class stealth submarines, while French engines power China's new naval frigate. Both could be used in an potential naval blockade of Taiwan, he said.

"As such, European companies have a presence in all PLA (People's Liberation Army) military industrial sectors," Fisher said.

"Even if the EU Code of Conduct is modified after discussion with Washington to continue denying the sale of full EU-made weapon systems to China, a very likely increase in the sale of military technologies will serve to accelerate PLA modernization."

Although much of China's efforts to modernize its military have come from Russia, there was still a lot of European technology China would want, said Ellis Joffee, an expert on the People's Liberation Army at Hebrew University in Israel.

Since the 1990s, Beijing has purchased about 20 billion dollars worth of Russian military hardware, including advanced Sukhoi SU-27 and SU-30 fighter jets, modern Russian destroyers and submarines, with about 12 billion dollars of weapons already delivered, he said.

"What is driving China to develop is their desire to have a capability to deter or defeat US intervention in the Taiwan Strait and deter Taiwan from extreme provocation," Joffee told AFP.

"The acquisition of the Russian weaponry and the ongoing training by the military, is constantly raising the price for any US intervention."

If the arms embargo was lifted, it was unlikely China would rush to Europe to begin a buying spree, but by lifting the embargo greater exchanges with EU military industries would likely increase, he said.
____________
I tell you if this happens there will be serious trouble. It has the appearance of the EU aligning with China against the US.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 05:04 pm
Quote:
He said "it is more likely than not" that the ban would be lifted before Britain takes over the presidency of the EU from Luxembourg in July.

But he said an EU code of conduct would prevent an increase in the number of arms being exported to the country.


Thanks, Walter.
Interesting in context.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 05:07 pm
Thank you Walter. Finally a source!
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 05:11 pm
i think in the end it doesn't matter very much whether or not the embargo against china will be relaxed. just have a look at all the united states and european corporations that have set up shop in china and those that are importing major components of their products from china. some time ago i read in 'business week' that the u.s. military would be in serious trouble if there would be a serious slowdown in delivery of electronic components from china. within in the last two weeks there was a report about the u.s. westcoast ports. the report said that there is an urgent need to expand those ports to accomodate all the ships bringing cargo from china. the idea of an enbargo seems kind of silly to me since the u.s. is trying very hard to increase its exports to china. i doubt very much that there are many goods that the chinese are not producing; as i said, just take a look at american companies and their trade pattern( a look at ships originating in chinese ports docking in u.s. westcoast ports and those passing through the panama-canal will give a good idea of what is happening in the trade between china and the rest of the world). china has probably become one of the economic engines of the world. from what i read in bussiness magazines, it seems that the rest of the world is lined up to trade with china. hbg
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 05:25 pm
Taiwan News.

Part--

If they really lift the weapon sales embargo, they would be giving wings to a ferocious tiger," said the NSC official.

The official said that even with the embargo imposed on China, some European countries such as Italy or France itself, used to "smuggle" high-tech weapons and defense technology to Taiwan's political enemy.

"This is why Michele Alliot-Marie's statement is merely dream world," said the official.

According to the official, lifting the embargo would put a lot of pressure on Russia, which sells most of its high-tech weaponry to India at the moment.

"If such European high-tech is opened to China, Russia will be forced to give China its latest top of the line technology," he said.

Commenting on the U.S. government's fierce lobbying of European countries to speak out against the embargo lift, the NSC official asked, "Does it help? The European Union has mentioned that they would sign some sort of code of conduct with China in the future if they really sell weapons, but this is only a useless and meaningless approach to appease the Bush administration."

On the other hand, Professor Lai I-chung of the Taiwan Thinktank who said Michele Alliot-Marie's statement was ridiculous and completely nonsensical pointed out that the U.S. could place more emphasis on lobbying eastern and central European countries to deter the embargo lift.

(...)

_________
This is not a small issue. It will send reverberations all over the globe.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 06:16 pm
From the Joint Statement of the 7th EU-China Summit:

.....

7. The EU and China confirmed that EU-China relations in all aspects have developed significantly in the last years. In this context they discussed the issue of the EU arms embargo against China. The EU side confirmed its political will to continue to work towards lifting the embargo. The Chinese side welcomed the positive signal, and considered it beneficial to the sound development of the comprehensive strategic partnership between China and the EU. Both sides reiterated their positions and agreed to continue consultations on this issue. China reaffirmed that political discrimination on this issue was not acceptable and should be immediately removed. The EU reaffirmed that work on strengthening the application of the European Union Code of Conduct on arms exports was continuing.

8. The EU side reaffirmed its continued adherence to the one China policy, and expressed its hope for a peaceful resolution of the Taiwan question through constructive dialogue. The Chinese side appreciated the EU's commitment to the one China policy and reiterated its principled position on the Taiwan question.

9. The Leaders believed that the EU-China human rights dialogue promoted mutual understanding and agreed to continue this dialogue, while making efforts to achieve more meaningful and positive results on the ground, as well as the related bilateral cooperation programme. They underlined their respect for international human rights standards provided for in relevant international human rights instruments, including on the rights of minorities, and their commitment to co-operate with UN human rights mechanisms. In this respect, China is committed to the ratification of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) as soon as possible. They also noted the importance of the International Criminal Court in the global fight against genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. The Leaders underlined the importance of concrete steps in the field of human rights and reaffirmed their commitment to further enhance co-operation and exchanges in this field on the basis of equality and mutual respect.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 06:25 pm
Translation for non-Europeans and non-Chinese:

The EU has just signed on to help Communist China continue to murder those who want freedom from them.

You better stop, hey, what's that sound,....
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 06:42 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4077739.stm

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao has been leading the Chinese delegation at the talks, which also focussed on trade and investment issues.

He said the key to developing EU-China ties lay with mutual trust and understanding.

The current ban "does not reflect the partnership between China and the EU," he said after the meeting.

The BBC's Diplomatic Correspondent, Jonathan Marcus, says advocates of lifting the ban say they do not expect a flood of weapons sales to result.

The move is about normalising the EU's valuable relationship with China.

But such arguments do not carry much weight in Washington, our correspondent adds.

The US fears that Chinese access to defence technology such as radar and communications equipment - rather than European weaponry - could alter the balance of power in Asia, and across the Taiwan Strait.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 07:28 pm
Lash wrote:
Hell, I think the article I linked said that Fischer and Chirac have personally and publicly said they want to lift it, and other nations argued them down.

German Socialdemocrat Chancellor Schroeder is in favour of lifting the embargo I believe, but Green Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer is not, way I understood it.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 07:51 pm
nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
Hell, I think the article I linked said that Fischer and Chirac have personally and publicly said they want to lift it, and other nations argued them down.

German Socialdemocrat Chancellor Schroeder is in favour of lifting the embargo I believe, but Green Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer is not.


exactly, nimh.

Actually, German Socialdemocrat Chancellor Schröder has personally and publicly said he wants to lift it, and the Green coalition partner has argued him down:

[translation from German]:

Greens criticise: Chancellor "buys" China's sympathy

The Greens emphasized their criticism of Federal Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's commitment to lifting the European Union's weapons embargo against China. The Green delegate Winfried Hermann accused the chancellor of trying to "buy" China's goodwill concerning a German seat in the UN Security Council as well as orders worth billion for German companies.

"Suchlike business leaves the coalition in a light of untrustworthyness", he told the Tagesspiegel. For Green European delegate and former party chairman Angelika Beer, Schröder is responsible for a loss of German credibility in foreign policy: "The attempt to lift the embargo at the current time leads to an international loss of credibility of German human right and foreign policy", she said. Green parliamentary vice chairman Hans Christian Ströbele requested following the Parliament's resolution prohibiting a lift of the embargo.

source
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 08:04 pm
Your thoughts, nimh?
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 09:27 am
How to Euro-Speak: A phrasebook for the presidential tourist.

February 18, 2005, 1:05 p.m.

Europeans hate the way Americans talk. They think we're loud and uncouth and they don't like our jokes, except for Michael Moore. Plus, they resent the fact that they've had to learn our language because if they didn't we wouldn't buy their stupid metric widgets or visit their overpriced ruins.

So when the president goes to Europe to give his speech to all the EU-niks in Brussels on Tuesday, it's important that he speak clearly ?- or at least clearfully. Because there are a few things he needs to say, and they can all be summed up in seven handy, easy-to-utter phrases:

1. Get a job. With their endless vacations and pint-sized workweeks, Europe can't produce enough of anything ?- including more Europeans ?- to save themselves from doom. So the French and Germans have only one realistic strategy when it comes to revitalizing their comatose economies: Wait for the U.S. economy to rise high enough to float their petits bateaux. Meanwhile, the EU's own reports have long shown the complete failure of the Lisbon strategy that was supposed to have the EU on a competitive par with the U.S. by 2010. Now, as noted in the EU Observer, the EU is failing to compete in technology and research, lagging behind not only the U.S., but also countries such as India. "The EU is falling behind," admitted EU commissioner Janez Potocnik. "And we are now under pressure not only compared to our traditional rivals like the U.S. or Japan, but also China, India or Brazil. We are facing a much tougher competition in talent and knowledge than we are used to." Why? "We don't want to achieve our economic growth by lowering the social or environmental standards."

2. Clean up your mess. As reported here and elsewhere, French leadership of EU and U.N. missions in Congo and Ivory Coast, among other African countries, have led to massive moral and tactical failures as "peacekeepers" have turned into rapists, thugs, robbers, and killers. In France, according to Le Monde, some survivors of the Rwanda genocide, which would have been impossible without French complicity, are finally being given a chance to ask for a hearing in a French court of law. This will almost certainly be blocked by the government, which has been covering up this gruesome scandal by burying it in slow-mo "investigations" for a decade now.

3. Stop taking bribes. Humanitarian groups have been screaming about the crisis in Darfur for a long, long time. The U.S. calls what is happening there a "genocide" ?- but the EU won't buy that because if it did, it'd be forced by law to intervene, something it not only doesn't want to do, but, logistically, could barely do if it had to. The U.N. Security Council is paralyzed because France, Russia, and China have blocked sanctions against Sudan. They blocked the sanctions because they all have very large oil and other investments there. Of course, this was the same reason the French rendered Security Council resolutions meaningless before the Iraq invasion, so not surprisingly, as the BBC reports, France is doing the same thing once again. The EU has introduced even more delay in bringing peace to Darfur because of a new insistence that war crimes ?- assuming anything ever occurs to bring them to justice ?- be tried before the ICC, where the U.S. does not participate.

4. Since you can't defend yourselves, get out of our way. NATO became a work-around for the U.S. in Iraq, and the alliance is now paralyzed because of the EU's own ambitions, as the International Herald Tribune reports. "There is paralysis between the EU and NATO," the paper quotes an EU official as saying. "We do not discuss anything serious." If that's the case, then why are we spending serious billions to keep the thing alive?

5. Knock off the eco-hypocrisy. The Europeans like to parade their agreement to abide by the provisions of the Kyoto pact like members of an Earth Shoe drill team. According to a piece in the IHT, "[Jürgen] Strube, the chairman of BASF's supervisory board, responds with a hint of impatience when asked how European industry plans to comply with the Kyoto Protocol, which requires Germany and 34 other countries to reduce their emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. As the treaty takes effect Wednesday, worries about its fairness are mixed with mild resentment [because] in their view… American and Chinese companies will not bear these extra costs." The item is a pick-up of a New York Times story by Mark Landler, so of course the rather salient fact not reported is that neither France, Germany, nor the rest of the EU will comply with the treaty provisions either. They aren't about to "bear these extra costs" when they can barely afford to drive to the beach in August as it is. In fact, the EU has treated Kyoto like its now-toothless debt-limit treaty and given up on it altogether. "Kyoto im Koma," were the words of a memorable Suddeutsche Zeitung headline a little over a year ago when the EU's Kyoto failure was first widely noticed.

6. Start a "No European Left Behind" program. Anti-Semitism, like anti-Americanism, is a permanent part of the European cultural landscape. But, according to an EU study reported in Le Nouvel Observateur, the situation has "seriously degraded" in the last five years. Anti-Semitism, needless to say, is a pretty reliable indicator of a lousy education. As a result, it's impossible to make the French, Germans, Belgians, and others understand that Israel is a consequence of their own bloody history and that they therefore have a responsibility to protect that which they forced into creation. This lack of basic education shows sometimes even among those who go to fancy schools like Eton. In Britain, only a small fraction of people under 30 knew anything about Auschwitz until Prince Charles's clever lad, Harry, decided to go partying with a swastika on his Nazi costume.

In France, it's not at all uncommon to meet schoolchildren who have no clear understanding that their government eagerly collaborated in the Holocaust. "We never learned that in school," a couple of kids in Provence remarked. Because peace in the Middle East means a greater likelihood of peace in the world, European leaders must explain to their citizens their responsibilities regarding Israel, and stop playing enabler to anti-Semitic terrorism, as France is doing with Hezbollah by refusing to call the terrorists what they are ?- and that would be terrorists to anyone but the French and Reuters. This quiet support of Hezbollah is hardly reported in the French press, as this rather disingenuous Libération piece describing Chirac's flying to Beirut suggests. The description of his gray suit is nice, though.

7. Jacques, Gerhard, get a better campaign issue. Chirac and Schröder are running nations that, if they were American sitcoms, would be cancelled and sold to European TV networks where they'd run forever, dubbed and dumber. Both nations are in economic sloughs; the Germans in fact are approaching Weimar-levels of unemployment. If they ran on their records in their coming elections, they'd crash faster than this cheap laptop of mine. So for both of these guys, the only campaign issue available is anti-Americanism. In the case of Chirac, it's just cynical opportunism, sort of what you'd expect from a guy wanted on fraud once he loses his office. In the case of Schröder and especially German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, it's blind ideology. As John Vinocur reports in the IHT, the small, cubical Schröder is not hiding his ambition behind his arrogance:


[A] speech by Gerhard Schröder, billed as a German-take-on-the-world and read out by Defense Minister Peter Struck (Schröder called in sick), grated. The Bush folk, trying so hard to be Europe-amenable seven days before the president's arrival, suddenly found themselves laboring not to look too wrong-footed, embarrassed or provoked by a message from the chancellor they did not fully expect … His text restated his determination that Germany get a UN Security Council seat cum veto power. It fled any mention of his quest to have the European Union lift its embargo on arms sales to China, a proposal that has enraged Congress across the board. And it urged an end to Iran's isolation and consideration for the mullahs' "legitimate security concerns" ?- on a day when James Woolsey, a Clinton administration director of U.S. central intelligence, was asking a seminar panelist if he knew of a single shard of fact indicating that Iran was not about to produce atomic weapons. (No answer.)

This latest burst of anti-Americanism in France and Germany has been aimed not just at the policies of the American government and the war in Iraq but also the culture of the American people, the popularity of which is something Chirac described as an "ecological disaster" during a visit to southeast Asia, just before the tsunami.

This kind of knee-jerk hatred colors the judgments of both men and their fellow citizens. If Germany and France hadn't already demonstrated their ability to market brutal hatred during World War II, this might not matter. But to fan the flames of grotesque intolerance during a war on terror just to keep two political hacks out of their own growing unemployment lines is a bit much. If that's worth deep-sixing the Atlantic "alliance," that's jake. Or maybe we could give Germany our Security Council seat (and our share of the bills) on our way out of the U.N. Let Europe pay its own way for a decade or two. If Bush makes nothing else clear when he arrives in Brussels Monday night for a "working dinner" with Chirac it should be that ultimately European anti-Americanism isn't our problem. It's Europe's problem, and Euro-leaders should take the lead in solving it.

So there's your seven-phrase speech, and good luck on that "fence-mending" mission of yours, Señor President. However, as a man who keeps a blind donkey in a pretty small pasture, I want to make a little suggestion: If you're going to mend a fence, go for the barbed stuff, minimum two strand 12.5ga galvanized ?- which, as you know, is just enough to cut the bull.

http://www.nationalreview.com/europress/boyles200502181305.asp      
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 09:44 am
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 10:36 am
JW rules!
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