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Tirpitz, the Building of Battleships and WWI

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 02:31 pm
Well, it's little bit out of the topic.

But since it was me, who opened this thread and since I just don'z want to create a new, I pose this interesting site (IMHO) here:

AMERICAN NAVAL POLICY - AS OUTLINED IN MESSAGES OF THE PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM 1790 TO 1924
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 04:30 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
I have a grudging respect for Bismarck, especially after 1875. I have no respect for Palmerston, who embodied the very worst attributes of pre-1914 British foreign policy.


I mostly agree with your take on these topics. I also have little respect for Palmerston, but i do concede that on more than occassion he played the honest broker in international conferences which eased European tensions--so long as the issues did not touch upon what you have charmingly characterized as the very worst attributes of British foreign policy. I would, however, not wish you to think that i have any admiration for him. He was prone to bully small nations with the threat of the Royal Navy, and to kiss heine furiously when there was a prospect of a genuine showdown with a first-class power. His hatred of the United States verged on the pathological. I believe that had he held the foreign portfolio in the 1860's, rather than John Russell, he would actively have supported Louis Bonaparte's "intervention" in Mexico, and sought any pretext for meddling in the American Civil War. It was fortunate (for the British more than the Americans) that ministries in London in those days still very much followed the "hands off" doctrine toward the policy decision of any particular responsible minister. One of Palmerston's odious traits was his pig-headed refusal to allow any further parliamentary reform after the 1832 Reform Act. As this prevented that aspect of party politics which obliges ministers to take heed of public opinion, the tradition of letting ministers run their offices almost unimpeded continued. In Palmerston's case, this meant that he really had no way of effectively meddling either in the United States or in Mexico.
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Ed Toner
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 11:07 am
I enjoy Naval History, and have studied the German Navy. They built some fantastic ships.

The demise of the BISMARK has always made me wonder about tactics. She had a rudder jammed hard over by a torpedo from a Swordfish, but everythine else worked.

Why wasn't the Prinz Eugen used to tow her to safety? A cable to Bismarks bow would have allowed both ships to proceed at limited speed and manueverabilty, and all those guns were operating.

I think an error was made in dispatching the Prinz Eugen and leaving Bismark to her obvious fate.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 01:44 pm
Ed Toner wrote:
I enjoy Naval History, and have studied the German Navy. They built some fantastic ships.


There are some pics/figures/facts HERE

As far as I remember, they (= Tirpitz/'The Naval Legue') wanted to built some ships, which were so strong (and heavy) that they never would have been able to swim properly.

Can't provide an ad hoc answer to your Prinz Eugen/Bismarck questions ... it's somewhere in the books ....
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Ed Toner
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 02:56 pm
Walter - vielen Dank
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 03:31 pm
:wink:
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 05:45 pm
re. Bismarck/Prinz Eugen : i have no direct knowledge here; walter - being an ex-navy man - probably will come up with an answer. but i have some general thoughts on this subject. establishing a towing link at high sea is a very difficult operation under the best of circumstances. a special "floating' tow-line would have been needed to make a link between the two ships. this is a job for which special salvage-tugs are used and the crews are highly trained for these jobs. i am not sure that the crews (particularly when they were facing more attacks), would have been able to handle this. i even doubt that a towline strong enough to tow and hold the "bismarck" would have been aboard the ships. remember, they were designed and equipped as fighting ships and not for rescue work. i have seen some of these floating towlines(used to work in the port of hamburg/germany); they are quite unwieldy and take up a lot of space. these towlines are designed to take an enourmous amount of stress, because they not only have to hold the ship being towed, but must withstand the additional stress of the wave action. even in commercial towing-operations, it is not uncommon for the towlines to break(keep in mind that if the the ship is not brought to port, the salvage company does not get paid. there is actually a fairly involved ssystem of paying salvage companies for their work). i think this is quite an interesting topic; let's see what walter has to say. hbg
0 Replies
 
Ed Toner
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 07:11 pm
I'm talking about a jury rig here, not an ideal situation. At stake was the pride of the German Navy, I say it would have been worth the risk.

All ships can tow and be towed in an emergency. Ships not equipped for towing can use the anchor chain, wire straps, nylon lines, or any combination necessary. A good catenary ensures spring in the towline. Slow speed transfers the lowest dynamic load from the towing ship to the tow. Large ships can easily overpower the tow and excessively strain the towline. The towing ship should keep engine revolutions low for the highest torque and lowest strain and surging.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 07:37 pm
all good points, ed ! i wonder how difficult/easy it might have been to get a floatline from one ship to the other and get the towline attached to it. another problem would have been the speed-reduction for the prinz eugen in the process of towing the much larger bismarck. i would think that the german navy command might have been worried about losing both ships; both ships would have had to proceed at a much reduced speed and would have been easy targets for british torpedo-planes. i'm sure walter will be able to find the "official" answer. hbg
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 07:38 pm
all good points, ed ! i wonder how difficult/easy it might have been to get a floatline from one ship to the other and get the towline attached to it. another problem would have been the speed-reduction for the prinz eugen in the process of towing the much larger bismarck. i would think that the german navy command might have been worried about losing both ships; both ships would have had to proceed at a much reduced speed and would have been easy targets for british torpedo-planes. i'm sure walter will be able to find the "official" answer. hbg
0 Replies
 
Ed Toner
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 07:47 pm
A Lyle gun can pass a heaving line far enough to start things off.

The decision to abandon the Bismark was a high command decision. I'm just reminiscing.

My Alma Mater:
http://www.usmma.edu/
Class of 1953
BSNS
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 08:22 pm
ed : i have just read some of the german websites dealing with this battle between the british and german navy. here are some of the points that stick out: 1)the bismarck sustained some damage during the battle that sunk the hood; specifically the pressure system for the catapult was damaged making it imposssible to launch the seaplane(apparently this was only discovered on 27 may); 2) the seas were apparently running very high at that time resulting in excessive rolling of the ships ; 3) on 23/24 may a decision was made to separate the prinz eugen from the bismarck; the prinz eugen was to attempt a breakthrough while the bismarck was to go to the port of brest(france) for repairs; 4) i assume that the prinz eugen was at some distance from the bismarck when the final battle took place(having already left two days earlier); 4)have not been able to find a map giving the location of the prinz eugen and the bismarck when the final encounter took place. ... there is a footnote to this mighty battle that took so many lives ... the crew of the bismarck had a cat by the name of OSKAR as a mascot; this cat was rescued by british sailors together with 115(?) german sailors; OSKAR survived TWO more sinkings on british ships and finally wound up in the home for retired sailors in belfast were he died after a long and eventful life in 1955(!); a photograph of OSKAR hangs in the national maritime museum in greenwich (if the story is to be believed - but it's probably true; sailors always have had a soft spot for mascots, no matter what the mascot's nationality). hbg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 01:26 am
Ed Toner wrote:
I enjoy Naval History, and have studied the German Navy. They built some fantastic ships.

The demise of the BISMARK has always made me wonder about tactics. She had a rudder jammed hard over by a torpedo from a Swordfish, but everythine else worked.

Why wasn't the Prinz Eugen used to tow her to safety? A cable to Bismarks bow would have allowed both ships to proceed at limited speed and manueverabilty, and all those guns were operating.

I think an error was made in dispatching the Prinz Eugen and leaving Bismark to her obvious fate.



I would offer a few observations on this: The High Seas command would not have necessarily known that Bismark was being left to a fate of any kind. The United States Coast Guard was tracking Bismark, both from the surface and the air. The USCG surveillance aircraft were "sold" to the Brits, and then "training crews" would arrive as a part of the sale deal. In fact, USCG aircraft simply flew from the U.K. as though at home--a part of waging neutrality.

The biggest mistake made was the failure to "top-off" Bismark's bunkers before leaving Norway. This meant that when she began losing fuel oil from damaged bunkers, she was obliged to run for Brest or La Rochelle, because there was nothing else in range. She was obliged to turn toward the concentration of the Royal Navy. In addition to the attacks by Swordfish (i can't believe they flew those damned things ! ! ! ), Mountbatten and his destroyer division came in close at night to harrass and delay her. I would say that when the decision was made to separate from Prinz Eugen, it was not yet understood that the Brits had basically "dropped everything" in order to concentrate to get the killer of Hood. The bunker oil situation required Bismark to head for the Bay of Biscay, Northhampton and Southhampton (which had first sighted the Germans and shadowed them into the Denmark Straits) had been "shaken off," making it seem reasonable for Bismark to make flank speed for the French coast, while the erruption of Prinz Eugen into commercial shipping lanes would draw off the Royal Navy. (I am purely speculating here, but this whole campaign seems to have been a case of one wrong turn after the other, with all the little mistakes eventually providing the path to disaster.)

The Swordfish were open cockpit bi-planes, and were doing little better than 90 knots in a torpedo launch run (to put that in perspective, modern naval jets would likely stall if they attempted to maneouver at 90 knots--too slow). Bismark was actually well provided with anti-aircraft; but the equations of air power vs. surface ships was not fully understood by either the Brits or the Germans at that time. By 1941, the United States was building light cruisers which were purpose built to provide AA protection for capital ships. Later in the war, Adolf Galland was able to provide sufficient land-based fighter cover for Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen to run the Channel in daytime. But when the hunt for Bismark was on, neither navy seems to have understood that a capital ship operating within range of land or ship-based attack aircraft without substantial AA support was basically committing suicide. That the Royal Navy did not understand, i think, is shown by the loss of Prince of Wales the following year when the Brits sent a task force to shell the Japanese at Camron Bay, and Prince of Wales and other ships were lost to Japanese aeriel attack. In 1941, the newest models of U.S. destroyers had better AA protection than Royal Navy cruisers, and as good as that on Royal Navy battleships. Royal Navy carriers had a capacity of about two suadrons, and although better AA protection than other RN capital ships, nothing compared even to old U.S. and Japanese carriers. Lexington and Saratoga were originally to be laid down as heavy cruisers, but with the provisions of London Naval Treaty, they were converted to carriers. Although more than a decade old when war broke out, these two carriers (and all in their class) had more than twice the aircraft carrying capacity of RN carriers, and significantly more than even Shokaku and Zuikaku, Japan's newest carriers, which first saw action in the attack on Pearl Harbor (it was Zuikaku's first cruise).

I guess i'm just saying that the High Seas Fleet just didn't know what they were getting into when the decision was made to run for the French coast. Personally, i think that had Prinz Eugen attempted to tow or even escort Bismark, she would have gone down as well. Had Bismark topped off her bunker oil before leaving Norway, she might well have made it out of the Denmark straits and beyond aeriel reconnaissance before the Royal Navy could pull together the ad hoc fleet which destroyed her. Neither navy seems to have understood the profound change ship-based and land-based attack aircraft were making in naval warfare.

As for HB's comment on the seas running high, certainly the Denmark Straits in May is no place to have a slug-fest. Bad weather most of the time, and bad waters almost all of the time.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 02:13 am
Haveing had a re-read: Setanta's thoughts should be correct!

re towing: in 1970, being an 'exchange boat' with a French mine-sweeping squadron in Cherbourg, every French boat wanted to get towed by us: being towed this way, they run faster than by own engines Laughing
(However, we had to tie our chief engineer: he feared for his engines, too :wink: . [Later convinced him with some boxes of Pilsner Urquell.])
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 03:18 am
Bismark

Smile
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Ed Toner
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 06:27 am
Hamburger - Thanks for the info. Let's analyse some of it.

" 2) the seas were apparently running very high at that time resulting in excessive rolling of the ships ; 3) on 23/24 may a decision was made to separate the prinz eugen from the bismarck; the prinz eugen was to attempt a breakthrough while the bismarck was to go to the port of brest(france) for repairs; "

The rolling of the ships should not have prevented the use of a Lyle gun firing a line between the ships. Fire on the even keel.

How could the Bismark navigate on her own to Brest? She could only make 360 degree turns.

This made her helpless, and her main battery useless. Had she been under tow, she could have kept a heading dictated by Prinz Eugen and use her main battery in broadsides, along with that of the PE, while proceeding slowly to a safe port.

I think it was worth a shot.

Hitler had no concept of sea power, and lost the significance of control of the N. Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea.

Big mistake.

BTW, one of the RN ships involved in shadowing the Bismark was HMS Sheffield, a Cruiser. She had radar. The first of the Swordfish almost attacked her, mistaking her for the Bismark.

In 1956, I was flying F2H-3 Banshee's off the USS WASP, CVA 18, while in VF-152, a night and all weather fighter squadron. (HAIRY, BTW.)

Sheffield was the station ship at Hong Kong. One night, unknown to our squadron, she had joined the Task Force. She had 4 screws, and left a wake smilar to that of the WASP.

This may sound strange to you folks, but the phosphoresent wake of ships at night was the way we found our way back to the carrier.

Anyway, it was an exercise, blacked out communications, lights, etc, and 2 of our Banshee's mistook Sheffield for the WASP, and made a landing pass at her. All Hell broke loose. Pyrotechnics, searchlights, etc..

Our squadron was then invited to a party by the CO of Sheffield at the RAF club in Hong Kong next time in port.

That was quite a blast.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 02:04 pm
TIRPITZ
i have selected an article from the bismarck webpage, a timeline(in german, but easy to read for anyone) and the official diary of the prinz eugen(kept in the u.s. national archives) for some more reading on this ill-fated event. i won't list all the material here, would probably amount to some 20 pages, but will give the website adresses for anyone interested in a detailed evaluation. after the sinking of the hood there are three important timelines that seem to stand out : 1) 24.05.1941 14:20hr, the prinz eugen is ordered to separate from the bismarck 2) 24.05.1941 18:14 hr, bismarck turnns 180 degrees starboard, prinz eugen maintains present course ...(i would think that was the beginning of the end; some historians claim the end started the minute the ships left port)... 3) 26.05.1941 20:55-21:25 hr bismarck hit by torpedoes from swordfish planes, rudder damaged, bismarck's ability to steer severely restricted. this was 48 hours after the prinz eugen and the bismarck separated. i do not see how the prinz eugen would have been able to rejoin the bismarck and take her into tow before the bismarck fired her last round on 27.05.1941 09:31 hr; she sank within an hour. should the prinz eugen have tried to rejoin the bismarck, i doubt that she would have survived a firefight with the british ships, even less so with the bismarck in tow at reduced speed. here are the three websites >>> 1) BISMARCK TIMELINE 2)BISMARCK WEBSITE www.kbismarck.com/operheini.html 3)PRINZ EUGEN WARDIARY http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/pgwardiary.html
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Ed Toner
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 03:29 pm
My scenario called for the PE to stand bye the Bismark, not steam away from her.

Their combined broadsides may have been enough to win. It's all speculative of course.

BTW, this matter has been discussed over the years with fellow Naval Officers.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2004 09:24 pm
Hitler certainly was clueless in naval mattes--or rather, in military matters altogether. He was often our best ally. However, given the independence which Raeder had displayed, and Hitler's cluelessness, i think the responsibility for a failed operation lay with Raeder. It has been advanced that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had had good commerce raiding cruises, and that it was not unreasonable to assume as much for Bismark and Prinz Eugen. However, i would say it is not unreasonable, first to assert that just such successes would lead the RN to concentrate more battle and reconnaissance assets to the North Sea, specifically to watch the Germans, and that as a competent officer, Raeder had ought to consider all of the implications of sending what many then considered the most powerful battleship in the world (those pesky Japanese--pay no attention to them!) into "narrow seas" such as the Denmark Straits represent. Ultimately, Lutgens was responsible for the failure to top off the bunker oil in Norway prior to departure. I think the Germans did well with the assets they had, but without the kind of support that Hitler's toadies and favorites enjoyed, they were not going to get significant resources, which would have been the only way to present a serious threat to the Royal Navy. The fate of Admiral Graf Spee at Montevideo in December, 1939, ought to have been minatory. Even if the original "Rheinburger" operation could have been carried out, with Bismark, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, the prospects for the Germans was not good--because of the air power equation, and because of the lack of an Atlantic base anywhere other than the Bay of Biscay.

The prospects for the German surface fleet were never good.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 06:47 am
Set, the Germans had an aircraft carrier on the drawing boards. Given their awareness of anti aircraft defense needs of capital ships and the fleet in general (ie AA armament) why did they not build one, or more?
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