3
   

Evolution of the Brain?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 02:17 am
@brianjakub,
Oh yeah . . . it's called the biosphere. You can't even demonstrate that your imaginary friend exists, and you expect us to buy your claim that there is nothing random operating on this system? The god botherers always manage to forget the implications of natural selection. But what really makes it hilarious is that more than 99% of all species which have ever existed are now extinct--yet you want us to believe that it is all guided by an intelligence. That sh*t cracks me up.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 03:53 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Oh yeah . . . it's called the biosphere. You can't even demonstrate that your imaginary friend exists, and you expect us to buy your claim that there is nothing random operating on this system? The god botherers always manage to forget the implications of natural selection. But what really makes it hilarious is that more than 99% of all species which have ever existed are now extinct--yet you want us to believe that it is all guided by an intelligence. That sh*t cracks me up.
You can't use the biosphere somebody already claimed He built it and it was too long ago to prove either way.

I don't care if its called a biosphere or an apple, windows or a droid, all I am saying is the biosphere is running an algorithm and when I see an operating system running an algorithm somebody built it and wrote it. That is the pattern or rule today. Has been the rule in all historical times.

Why do you think the rule changed in prehistoric times?

If it's so easy to replicate algorithms and operating systems popping out of nothing, can you give me an example of one happening today?

How about just taking an operating system like windows or the biosphere and throw in some random code generators and see if it produces some complex algorithm?

Why do cataclysmic events that cause death and destruction crack you up?
Those events usually cause spurts in productivity and ingenuity today though.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 10:47 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:
Why do you think the rule changed in prehistoric times?

I like the algorithm analogy but do you think there might be some feedback loop?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 11:54 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Why do cataclysmic events that cause death and destruction crack you up?
Those events usually cause spurts in productivity and ingenuity today though.


Except for the majority of the species that were wiped out. I wrote a short story a few yer ago about how the Chixclub even occured in the PQcific Ocean instead of the Yucatan. That resulted in a retention of dinosaurs and a compression of the evolution of the mqmmals (Six Classes of mammals ) that were wiped out were instead, spared and became competitive pinnacle species and the primates were left as tarsiers with no great apes.
Dinosaurs were becoming warm blooded and the theropoda became the intelligent ones that developed BIG BRAINS. Thepoint of the story was that all porn magqzines became focused on Lizard Love.

jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 12:08 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
and the theropoda became the intelligent ones that developed BIG BRAINS

Umm, I think you have it backwards. Theropoda are todays birds.. ya know.. bird brain?

0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 12:34 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Why do cataclysmic events that cause death and destruction crack you up?
Those events usually cause spurts in productivity and ingenuity today though.


Except for the majority of the species that were wiped out. I wrote a short story a few yer ago about how the Chixclub even occured in the PQcific Ocean instead of the Yucatan. That resulted in a retention of dinosaurs and a compression of the evolution of the mqmmals (Six Classes of mammals ) that were wiped out were instead, spared and became competitive pinnacle species and the primates were left as tarsiers with no great apes.
Dinosaurs were becoming warm blooded and the theropoda became the intelligent ones that developed BIG BRAINS. Thepoint of the story was that all porn magqzines became focused on Lizard Love.




I may have totally misunderstood your intent to demean theropoda. I really don't think you have a birds eye view of anything.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 01:19 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:

Except for the majority of the species that were wiped out. I wrote a short story a few yer ago about how the Chixclub even occured in the PQcific Ocean instead of the Yucatan. That resulted in a retention of dinosaurs and a compression of the evolution of the mqmmals (Six Classes of mammals ) that were wiped out were instead, spared and became competitive pinnacle species and the primates were left as tarsiers with no great apes.
Dinosaurs were becoming warm blooded and the theropoda became the intelligent ones that developed BIG BRAINS. Thepoint of the story was that all porn magazines became focused on Lizard Love.
All I am saying is that 90 percent of what we learn is from the mistakes we made. Vast extinctions are great opportunities for learning if intelligence is involved. The question is who are the intelligant people (I use the word people for convenience here. Can't think of a better one.) involved, and what are they learning.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:13 pm
@brianjakub,
are you saying that "learning" from chixclub was post cataclysmic and epigenetic?. It seems the teachers were all rendered extinct from blast, tsunami , and acid :winter".

Now consider this. The zootic changes that occured with birds and mammals occurred BEFORE Chixclub. We see that most living species today contain all the information of reptilian forebeqrs as "pseudogenes". Doesnt that somehow give you a bit of a problem with ID being an "informationally derived phenotypic change?
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 06:57 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
are you saying that "learning" from chixclub was post cataclysmic and epigenetic?. It seems the teachers were all rendered extinct from blast, tsunami , and acid :winter".
who is the teacher? I doubt he is extinct.
Quote:

Now consider this. The zootic changes that occured with birds and mammals occurred BEFORE Chixclub. We see that most living species today contain all the information of reptilian forebeqrs as "pseudogenes". Doesnt that somehow give you a bit of a problem with ID being an "informationally derived phenotypic change?
So you are saying that most of the DNA code (the algorithm) and the enviroment and biology (operating system and the hardware for it to operate) were created before chixclub and have been operating basically automatically since then.

What happened before that?

How was the initial hardware, operating system and algorithm established?

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 04:16 am
There was no hardware, not operating system, no algorithms. You are begging the question big time by assuming that this is all purposive. You haven`t examined the evidence and come to a conclusion. You have started from a premise, and are attempting to shoe-horn all data into your premise. It is random, and it appears that the idea that it is random either offends or frightens you--perhaps both.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 06:28 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
So you are saying that most of the DNA code (the algorithm) and the enviroment and biology (operating system and the hardware for it to operate) were created before chixclub and have been operating basically automatically since then.
Youre not even close. You posed the statement qn now seem to wanna back of in a different direction. Its getting somewhat annoying to engage others by trying to be purposely evasive.

HERES WHAT YOU SAID< TO WHICH MY ANSWER WAS DIRECTED

Quote:
All I am saying is that 90 percent of what we learn is from the mistakes we made. Vast extinctions are great opportunities for learning if intelligence is involved. The question is who are the intelligant people


Chixclub was merely a relevant example of how biological responses to cataclysmic events are already in motion even before the event. The event presents a natural selection process ---(not a design opportunity) period.

When Fairbanks made the comparison of DNA structures to a "bar code" , he never realized that some Fundamentalists would take this and run with a tale of a big spirit and an operating system.
We seem to understand how the genome works and how genes are preserved and changed and how all this happens in the ordinary biological world.How processes like methylation, folding, chromosomal duplicating, and Cas9 "snipping" (Among a whole lot of other mechanico-chemical means) work AND, we can also see evolution occurring without much initial gene involvement and how , except for two issues based upon Victorian ignorance, it all follows Darwins theory like a script. If I were you though, Id start with the areas in which Darwin fucked up , that, at least, has some counter data on deniability. That, and convergent evolution are two areas that, if I were a card carrying IDer, Id begin my searches there. Your insistance on an "Algorithm" is merely posing a

"If it were this... then that would happen" , argument, because you are totally evidence-free an not observing any of the rules of scientific inquiry.

Remember, a "theory" in science is also a fact, not a conjecture.



jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 01:41 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

scientific inquiry.
Remember, a "theory" in science is also a fact, not a conjecture.


That's bullshit. A theory is a proposition composed of elements supposedly intact. It's like writing a sentence. The words exist but are they constructed properly to relay the notion.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 02:06 pm
@jerlands,
now THATS bullshit. Youd better learn how science views a theory. A theory contain all the facts supporting it, and a theory only lives if there are no similar facts that refute it.

Look it up, youll find it so.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 02:40 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:

Chixclub was merely a relevant example of how biological responses to cataclysmic events are already in motion even before the event. The event presents a natural selection process ---(not a design opportunity) period.
A natural selection process is an algorithm that causes biologoical sytems to evolve to higher complexity. Either it was written by someone, or it is an algorithm that magically appeared out of nothing.

Which is it?
Quote:
When Fairbanks made the comparison of DNA structures to a "bar code" , he never realized that some Fundamentalists would take this and run with a tale of a big spirit and an operating system.
Why not? The pattern is so obvious a child can see it. Do you suppose he kept touching a hot stove and getting burned clear into his adulthood?

If the universe we live in with all its parts (earth, sun, moon, solar system and at least the neighboring stars) being essential to running the algorithm, and we know what patterns the construction of all algorithms follow today, wouldn't most people recognize this pattern. 69% of people with post graduate degrees believe the pattern of intelligence behind natural selection holds true according to gallup.http://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-humans-new-low.aspx
Quote:
"If it were this... then that would happen" , argument, because you are totally evidence-free an not observing any of the rules of scientific inquiry.
The pattern is so obvious in the complexity of the algorithm, the hardware, and the operating system that 69% of people with post graduate degrees can recognize it?
Quote:
We seem to understand how the genome works and how genes are preserved and changed and how all this happens in the ordinary biological world.How processes like methylation, folding, chromosomal duplicating, and Cas9 "snipping" (Among a whole lot of other mechanico-chemical means) work AND, we can also see evolution occurring without much initial gene involvement and how , except for two issues based upon Victorian ignorance, it all follows Darwins theory like a script. If I were you though, Id start with the areas in which Darwin
So why do you keep telling me to look at the algorithm, the hardware, and the operating system to find out how it designed itself. It's not in there. It follows Darwins theory like a script because it is a script.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 02:55 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

now THATS bullshit. Youd better learn how science views a theory. A theory contain all the facts supporting it, and a theory only lives if there are no similar facts that refute it.

Look it up, youll find it so.


merriam webster wrote:

Definition of theory
1 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena the wave theory of light
2 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn
b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all
3 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
b : an unproved assumption : conjecture
c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject theory of equations
4 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art music theory
5 : abstract thought : speculation
6 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 04:05 pm
@jerlands,
this discussion is carried out in beginning natural history class. Please sign up and stop acting stupid by posting a dictionary definition of a term that has been accepted pretty much as definition no 1 .
Heres a definition from the AGI "Glossary of Geology" 6th ed
Quote:
THEORY An explanatory system of general principles or LAWS, inferred from the associated phenomena and linking known facts and observations, held to be true, unless and until contradicted or amended by new facts or observations. EXAMPLES: ATOMIC THEORY, QUANTUM THEORY, THEORY OF EVOLUTION, THEORY OF CONTINENTAL DRIFT, Theory of MAGNETISM.


Raup sid it simply, A theory (in science) is an explanation of connected phenomenq where all the facts and observations support and NO facts or observations refute the explanation.

While in our day to day communications a "theory" may be a mere hunch or conjecture, IN SCIENCE its got a strict definition that you should really become familiar with rather than trying to deny it..
It really is a precise term with a precise meaning to science
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 04:49 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

scientific inquiry.
Remember, a "theory" in science is also a fact, not a conjecture.


First Note: You claimed theory was fact
Second Note: I don't know Raup but what you site is "an explanation"

If you can't separate the word explanation from fact that's more your problem than I can address right now.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 04:53 pm
@jerlands,
Quote:
First Note: You claimed theory was fact
YES I DID. What of it? A theory i also a fact (see S J Gould's explanation)

READ S. J. GOULD HERE
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 04:55 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
First Note: You claimed theory was fact
YES I DID. What of it? A theory i also a fact (see S J Gould's explanation)


Well let's examine what a fact is.. basically it's just something assumed at the time.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 05:02 pm
@farmerman,
jerlands wrote:

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
First Note: You claimed theory was fact
YES I DID. What of it? A theory i also a fact (see S J Gould's explanation)


Well let's examine what a fact is.. basically it's just something assumed at the time.


I know you'll argue that but I think the question is one of permanence .
0 Replies
 
 

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