Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"

"I am not going to walk up to someone on the street who is minding his/her own business and demand to know what their beliefs are so that I can challenge them.

I am not going to enter a church, synagogue, or temple and start badgering people privately going about their business.

For the most part...I don't even get into discussions about mangers or Mennorahs...unless someone brngs the subject up....and then I offer as concise and honest an opinion as I can."

Frank, I believe this is an example of "respect."

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Bibliophile the BibleGuru wrote:

"I am not going to walk up to someone on the street who is minding his/her own business and demand to know what their beliefs are so that I can challenge them.

I am not going to enter a church, synagogue, or temple and start badgering people privately going about their business.

For the most part...I don't even get into discussions about mangers or Mennorahs...unless someone brngs the subject up....and then I offer as concise and honest an opinion as I can."

Frank, I believe this is an example of "respect."

Yep.

I often give respect. In fact, I am a very respectful person...despite any considerations some A2Kers might have to the contrary.

I am not arguing that we should not give respect.

I am arguing that it has limits.

Remember?????

I've mentioned it several times.

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By "limits" Frank, do you mean that your respect is "conditional" ?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Lash wrote:
I have asked at least once somewhere in this thread if this applies to Real Life, rather than a debate board--which of course exists for that kind of debate.

So, this thread doesn't suggest you would challenge people's beliefs IRL? Just on the internet?

Been trying to ascertain that clarification--as have others.

I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever challenging other people's "beliefs" out in "Real Life" (whatever the hell that means, because I think this is "Real Life" also)....and I do all the time.

But I do tend to limit that kind of thing to people who actually try to get into my face about their beliefs.

I am not going to walk up to someone on the street who is minding his/her own business and demand to know what their beliefs are so that I can challenge them.

I am not going to enter a church, synagogue, or temple and start badgering people privately going about their business.

For the most part...I don't even get into discussions about mangers or Mennorahs...unless someone brngs the subject up....and then I offer as concise and honest an opinion as I can.

If someone writes a letter-to-the-editor on the subject with which I disagree...I might offer a letter of rebuttal.

"Not respecting someone's beliefs" does not necessarily mean you have to be rude or even unnecessarily or inappropriately confrontational.

I certainly am not above doing that sort of thing if I think it is called for...but mostly I disagree as pleasantly as I can without diminishing the passion of my disagreement.

Does that answer your question, Lash?

It does very nicely. Thank you. I consider that you do respect others' beliefs. The practices you cite don't preclude a respect for others' beliefs.

However, I do think most of us are more geared toward confrontation in this venue than we are in our own personal environment--face to face.

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bib:-

Of course he does.

spendius.

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Bibliophile the BibleGuru wrote:

By "limits" Frank, do you mean that your respect is "conditional" ?

No, Bib. And I have expained all that in detail.

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fresco wrote:

Frank,

I asked this one on Abuzz a long time ago.

I argued that it makes sense to respect "people" but not "their beliefs". The problem with this agument is that "people" identify with "their beliefs" within a seamless social reality, hence "respect" becomes a matter of expediency rather than absolute morality.

(I apologise if these points have been made by others above as I have only superficially scanned the thread. I notice I am opposing Phoenix for example by saying that people do not hold beliefs, they are their beliefs).

Hi Fresco. I haven't seen you about lately. Good to see you.

I agree with your last sentence above. The other day I was arguing with someone.......well we were in heated debate in which both of us got angry at the other because we discovered later, once we had cooled off, that we were questioning a belief so basic in both of us that we both felt personally attacked.

I believe we each have, have to have, some strongly held guiding principles by which we structure our lives. When one of those deep down foundational or characterological principles is challenged, especially if the other is persistent or is attacking, we experience that as an attack on our character, that is on who we are. It goes double if the attack is mutual. You can't get more basic than that.

Later during discussion with this friend, we both could explain that we were both thinking the other was stupid in his argument. That's because we were attacking foundational cornerstones of our personalities. We decided that the best course was not to talk about that subject again for the time being. Or at least if we do talk about it, to do it with a little more respect.

But it's easy to see, given human nature, how wars are fought over such events.

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Agreed Lola.

Frank - surely any "line drawing" is expedient to the drawer...look at the Western praise for "Uncle Joe Stalin" during the last war...a guy who killed as many as Hitler and even made a pact with him !

The point is that we tend to compartmentalize what we see as negative aspects in others in order to "do business" with them. This all works fine until the business breaks down or the walls of the compartments fail.

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fresco wrote:

Agreed Lola.

Frank - surely any "line drawing" is expedient to the drawer...

That is my point, Fresco.

Many of the people who argue most about "we have to respect other people's beliefs"...or..."we have to respect the other person even if we do not respect their beliefs...

...don't.

And damn well they don't, in my opinion.

I don't want people respecting Hitler or Stalin.

But then where do you draw the line?

That is my point.

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For me, I draw the line when a person's beliefs are reprehensible. Murders, dictators and Rad Republicans fall under this catagory. Also terrorists.

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Lola wrote:

For me, I draw the line when a person's beliefs are reprehensible. Murders, dictators and Rad Republicans fall under this catagory. Also terrorists.

Whew! I was hoping I wouldn't find "...or people from New Jersey" on your list. :wink:

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nah........people in New Jersey are beautiful people, Frank. You live in the wilderness, but other than that, you're a fine bunch. :wink:

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So, a person with conservative values is reprehensible?

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To Micheal Moore Democrats--and we don't waste our time on them anyway.

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I agree that lines can be drawn. But I don't think the lines can be universal to everybody.

BTW, I can't respond to PMs yet Sad

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My point right along has been that any lines drawn are not "universal" or "generally agreed upon" or "able to be generally established" or anything like that.

My point is that most of us agree that "we must respect other beliefs" has limits...and that each of us sets our own limits...in effect, draws the line where he/she chooses.

Obviously, as Fresco notes...the line is drawn to the expedency of the drawer.

The admonition: We must respect other people's beliefs....is overdone.

The admonition: We must respect other people despite their beliefs...is overdone.

This is not necessarily an argument to disrespect other people or disresect their beliefs....although in many cases, that is exactly what all of us seem to do.

Telling people not to do it...often is little more than, "I want you to draw the line where I want you to draw it rather than where you want to draw it."

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ok... since you put it exactly like that...

Here's a shocker...

I agree Smile

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Lola

When you talk about murders, dictators, terrorists you talk about actions, not believes.
So, what is the criteria?
Was Washington a terrorist in the eyes of british soldiers? Hiroxima was an act of terrorism in the eyes of japanese? Was Lincoln a dictator in the eyes of the southern slavers?

Stalin was an atheist. Bin Laden is a theist. Mother Teresa was a theist. Sartre was an atheist. When did their believes about religion drawn the line? When they become "reprehensible"? Reprehensible by whom? Is Bin Laden reprehensible to fundamentalist muslems? Is Bush reprehensible to Republican voters?

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Good questions val.

Maybe beliefs cannot be subjected to respect, because they are too abstract. The problem is that respect requires understanding, and to understand a persons beliefs exclusively based on this persons descriptions of it is, to put it mildly, hard.

So if I do not understand your beliefs, but tell you that I respect them, am I not lying?

Respect is something between people. Not between peoples' business.
So the question is invalid. You cannot respect or disrespect a persons beliefs. You can respect or disrespect a person. His beliefs are not hurt by your attecks on it. The believer on the other hand, can be.

About acceptance. Is that the same thing? If we were to accept all peoples beliefs, no matter what, wouldn't that be disastrous?

If my friend believed that he could fly, and wanted to jump off abuilding, would it not be wrong of me to accept or respect this belief?

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Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"

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