Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"

Lola wrote:

Quote:

Snood's statement about faith being a belief in the unprovable is fine if one feels comforted by the idea. But I've never felt comforted by this concept of God because I can't conjure up a feeling I can call belief without clear evidence. It just doesn't make sense to me. At church, when I was asked if I believed, I could never honestly answer that question with a yes, and I was taught that I should always be honest, even though I often lied (a sin, according to this supposed God) when I was a child in order to preserve the peace. What am I to do about this problem? Somehow the Calvinist explanation that I'm not one of the elect just doesn't satisfy, and you must see why not.

Lola, if I read you right, you have no need for the word "belief" in your vocabulary. What you call "believing with facts to back it up" is known throughout the world as knowing.

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No, Snood, it's not knowing. Knowing becomes dogna. It's believing while looking for exceptions to the rule, then the rule changes. Facts are really what's understood over many years of experience and experimentation. But doubt is necessary in order to grow. We will never know. Or at least I hope we don't. What will we do then for fun?

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binnyboy wrote:

I like lola

I like you too Binnyboy. How are you liking Houston? I got the heck outa Texas this year........and I'm never goin back (to live). I hope. Until I'm dead, that is.

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Lola wrote:

binnyboy wrote:
I like lola

I like you too Binnyboy. How are you liking Houston? I got the heck outa Texas this year........and I'm never goin back (to live). I hope. Until I'm dead, that is.

I understand some of your feeling about Texas (I've been in San Antone for the last two years). But I've been worse, and better places.

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Frank,

I asked this one on Abuzz a long time ago.

I argued that it makes sense to respect "people" but not "their beliefs". The problem with this agument is that "people" identify with "their beliefs" within a seamless social reality, hence "respect" becomes a matter of expediency rather than absolute morality.

(I apologise if these points have been made by others above as I have only superficially scanned the thread. I notice I am opposing Phoenix for example by saying that people do not hold beliefs, they are their beliefs).

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fresco wrote:

Frank,

I asked this one on Abuzz a long time ago.

I argued that it makes sense to respect "people" but not "their beliefs". The problem with this agument is that "people" identify with "their beliefs" within a seamless social reality, hence "respect" becomes a matter of expediency rather than absolute morality.

(I apologise if these points have been made by others above as I have only superficially scanned the thread. I notice I am opposing Phoenix for example by saying that people do not hold beliefs, they are their beliefs).

Well...I'm not sure of what your question is, Fresco...you seem to have left the question out. :wink:

But if it has to do with the "respecting people" even if one cannot "respect their belief"...

...I already commented on that.

Allow me to re-state it.

Adolph Hitler had "beliefs" which I find reprehensible. There is no way I could possibly respect his beliefs...and quite honestly, because of my considerations about his "beliefs"...there is no way I would respect him as a person.

Osama Bin Laden has "beliefs" which I find reprehensible. There is no way I could possibly respect his beliefs...and quite honestly, because of my considerations about his "beliefs"...there is no way I would repect him as a person.

As you can see, Fresco...I think a line can be drawn.

As I see it...all that is left is to individually decide where to draw the line.

Do you agree...or disagree?

And if you disagree...please talk to me about it.

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Well, it's ok for me right now. I'm pretty lucky where I am right here close to nasa. I got to spend three years of high school and four more years of college in association with some awesome engineers there.
I don't really care for the way Texas is run, though. I guess I should move... I just don't know where to go yet. What made you choose Manhattan? And how do you know Frank? Smile

if you both don't mind my asking...

Frank, I don't know what the answer is to the question, but I think using names like Hitler and Osama clouds the waters. You can respect or refuse to respect anything you like, but to do so without qualifying it with a statement that you have had years of experience considering the very matter of the position held by the person (and/or the views themselves) you refuse to respect may be misleading (or, if you disagree with BoGoWo, irresponsible).

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Frank

You say that "a line can be drown". Yes, but in cases like Hitler or Bin Laden it is easy - liky Binny pointed - because they are mass murders.
In most of the situations how can you find a criteria that allows you "to drown the line". An example: Binny thinks that human beings should free themselves from emotions, becoming cyborgs. I have a conception of the world not very far from Kant's first Critic. Other people in here are christians, or at least theists. Bush and his administration promote a christian cruzade.
Where should we "drawn the line"? And based on what criteria?

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I respect other people's beliefs.I feel that my self-respect is at more respectable levels when I believe myself a respecter of beliefs which I don't believe.Also.I believe all those who respect the beliefs of others which are contrary to their own beliefs even though the former beliefs have components which don't respect their own beliefs,especially those beliefs which respect the beliefs of others,to be worthy of respect.If I didn't believe that I could only respect beliefs which didn't respect other people's beliefs and that would be bigoted and ,as such,would undermine my self respect and lead me to question the beliefs of people who respected my bigoted beliefs.

When I was but knee-high to a frisky colt we saw many American movies which expressed the sentiment-"The only good Indian is a dead Indian."
Not so long ago I saw a newspaper printed in 1927 which had a headline-"Sheriff raises posse to exterminate Indians".
It is odd that now as many Americans feel secure on the land those eminently respectable beliefs of those fairly recent times won for them they have suddenly discovered the virtue of respecting the beliefs of the aboriginal peoples and now censor those movies and hide those newspapers so that they have to respect the beliefs of the censors in order to keep their virtu intacta.

There's a tribe in New Guinea which not only believes that the only good enemy is a dead enemy but finds any other viewpoint incomprehensible.When they kill an enemy they then eat them to make sure they are really dead.

spendius.

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val wrote:

Frank

You say that "a line can be drown". Yes, but in cases like Hitler or Bin Laden it is easy - liky Binny pointed - because they are mass murders.
In most of the situations how can you find a criteria that allows you "to drown the line". An example: Binny thinks that human beings should free themselves from emotions, becoming cyborgs. I have a conception of the world not very far from Kant's first Critic. Other people in here are christians, or at least theists. Bush and his administration promote a christian cruzade.
Where should we "drawn the line"? And based on what criteria?

I am merely pointing out that it is not unreasonable to draw a line about what or whom should be respected.

Once a person agrees that it is not unreasonable to draw a line...then that person has to decide subjectively where to draw it.

But the line can be reasonably drawn...(if in fact, you agree with that, because you may not)...

...but if you do...

...then I offer it in furtherance of my original contention that the entire notion that "we should respect other people's beliefs" is much overdone.

As I mentioned earlier, it is my opinion that most people want to pick and choose which beliefs to respect...and which to scorn. And I think most of the exhortations for everyone to "respect other people's beliefs"...are nothing more than a cry for others to respect their (the people exhorting) beliefs.

I am not saying it is "easy" to draw the line...nor am I saying that we all draw it appropriately...but I am saying that a line can be drawn...and once that box is opened...we have to deal with it.

Do you follow my reasoning here, Val?

If you disagree with it...tell me why. I'd love to discuss it.

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Frank, what's your conclusions, thus far, on your question?

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Bibliophile the BibleGuru wrote:

Frank, what's your conclusions, thus far, on your question?

I have heard nothing to dissuade me from my original opinion that the question:

Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"...

...should be answered...

..."Not necessarily!"

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So, the Muslims can suck ass if they want to wear scarves or pray 5 times no matter where they are? Will you complain?

When you say you may not respect other's beliefs--will you go out of your way to communicate this to them?

Just trying to see the purpose of your question--and what you consider respecting or not respecting... How will it look?

Is this about removing "manger scenes" and Menorrahs from public places?

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What if we respect respect? If muslims want to do their thing we should respect it as long as it does not disrespect us.

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This is certainly my way of thinking. Wonder if it's Frank's--and if this applies to Christians, as well?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Bibliophile the BibleGuru wrote:
Frank, what's your conclusions, thus far, on your question?

I have heard nothing to dissuade me from my original opinion that the question:

Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"...

...should be answered...

..."Not necessarily!"

Thanks Frank. As always, I appreciate your openness. Cool

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Would it be fair to say that you are "sitting on the fence" ? i.e. not quite sure which side of the debate to fall on. Or is there something else?

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Lash wrote:

So, the Muslims can suck ass if they want to wear scarves or pray 5 times no matter where they are? Will you complain?

Huh???

I'm not sure of what you are asking here.

Quote:

When you say you may not respect other's beliefs--will you go out of your way to communicate this to them?

If they post on an Internet forum...I not only will go out of my way....I will go WAY out of my way to communicate this to them.

By posting on an Internet forum, it can be argued that they are asking me to do so.

Quote:

Just trying to see the purpose of your question--and what you consider respecting or not respecting... How will it look?

It will look the way it looks.

Quote:

Is this about removing "manger scenes" and Menorrahs from public places?

It is about what has been discussed for 10 pages, Lash.

I personally think "manger scenes" and "Menorrahs" in public spaces is an unnecessary intrusion into public life...but I am out-numbered by people who don't much give a rat's ass about how I feel...so I seldom spend any time regreting when I let them know I don't much give a rat's ass about how they do.

At best...we simply share with each other how we feel.

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Cyracuz wrote:

What if we respect respect? If muslims want to do their thing we should respect it as long as it does not disrespect us.

I am not arguing that we should not respect ANYTHING.

I am not even arguing that we shouldn't respect most stuff.

I am simply arguing that there are limitations on respect...and if we all respect" that there are limitations...we ought also to "respect" that each of us may have different ideas about when "respect" ought be given...and when "respect" ought be withheld.

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I have asked at least once somewhere in this thread if this applies to Real Life, rather than a debate board--which of course exists for that kind of debate.

So, this thread doesn't suggest you would challenge people's beliefs IRL? Just on the internet?

Been trying to ascertain that clarification--as have others.

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Lash wrote:

I have asked at least once somewhere in this thread if this applies to Real Life, rather than a debate board--which of course exists for that kind of debate.

So, this thread doesn't suggest you would challenge people's beliefs IRL? Just on the internet?

Been trying to ascertain that clarification--as have others.

I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever challenging other people's "beliefs" out in "Real Life" (whatever the hell that means, because I think this is "Real Life" also)....and I do all the time.

But I do tend to limit that kind of thing to people who actually try to get into my face about their beliefs.

I am not going to walk up to someone on the street who is minding his/her own business and demand to know what their beliefs are so that I can challenge them.

I am not going to enter a church, synagogue, or temple and start badgering people privately going about their business.

For the most part...I don't even get into discussions about mangers or Mennorahs...unless someone brngs the subject up....and then I offer as concise and honest an opinion as I can.

If someone writes a letter-to-the-editor on the subject with which I disagree...I might offer a letter of rebuttal.

"Not respecting someone's beliefs" does not necessarily mean you have to be rude or even unnecessarily or inappropriately confrontational.

I certainly am not above doing that sort of thing if I think it is called for...but mostly I disagree as pleasantly as I can without diminishing the passion of my disagreement.

Does that answer your question, Lash?

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Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"

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