Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Frank- It is really very simple- A person believes something, and his belief does not harm me, or impinge on my privacy. I may consider the belief idiotic, but I respect the person's right to hold those beliefs.

If, on the other hand, the person's beliefs affect my life in a negative way, I cannot respect those beliefs, or the person who believes in them.

Example: If a person does not believe in abortion, I can respect the right of the person to hold that belief. If, on the other hand, that person harrasses people in front of abortion clinics, I do not think that the person, or the belief, (that it is appropriate for him to harrass people who disagree with his stand on abortion) I cannot respect the person, or the belief.

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But Phoenix...not to put too fine a point on it...aren't you saying that you want to be able to pick and choose which "person's right to hold those beliefs"...you want to respect?

Absolutely- I would not respect a skinhead or his beliefs, even if I never ran into one. But IMO he has the right to hold his beliefs, as long as he does not act on them to the detriment of other people.

Phoenix...I'm not trying to get into an argument with you...I AGREE WITH YOU.

But maybe it is not all that simply...as you suggest.

I am merely calling attention to the fact that each of us, subjectively, has to determine when other people's beliefs harm us or impinge on our rights.

In another thread, we have been discussing the wording "...one nation, under god..." in our pledge of allegiance.

I think (my subjective considerations are) the words impinge on my rights in a huge way...and I think they do immense harm to all of society.

Foxfyre won't even consider the possibility that that is so.

As far as she is concerned...it is a non-issue.

Just as you want to be able to decide if another person's "beliefs" harm you or impinge on your rights...I WANT TO DECIDE THAT ALSO when it applies to me.

So essentialy, I am saying that all this talk of respecting other people's beliefs (which is the way it normally is presented, despite some of the posts here)...is way, way overdone. And in light of what some people are saying about "respecting the person"...I will add that I do not respect Osama Bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi or Adolph Hitler....precisely because I do not respect their beliefs.

So even that has to be evaluated.

I might add that I have a lot of trouble respecting Foxfyre for her blindness to the sensibilities of people who do not share her views...or mythology.

(SIDEBAR: Is saying what I just said being disrepectful?)

Do you see my point?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Frank- It is really very simple- A person believes something, and his belief does not harm me, or impinge on my privacy. I may consider the belief idiotic, but I respect the person's right to hold those beliefs.

If, on the other hand, the person's beliefs affect my life in a negative way, I cannot respect those beliefs, or the person who believes in them.

Your statements are oxymoronic. If you respect their belief then it shouldn't be conditional. But you have stipulated that your respect for their belief is conditional, i.e. "the person's beliefs affect my life in a negative way, I cannot respect those beliefs."

You can't have it both ways, Phoenix.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

So essentialy, I am saying that all this talk of respecting other people's beliefs (which is the way it normally is presented, despite some of the posts here)...is way, way overdone. And in light of what some people are saying about "respecting the person"...I will add that I do not respect Osama Bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi or Adolph Hitler....precisely because I do not respect their beliefs.

(SIDEBAR: Is saying what I just said being disrepectful?)

Do you see my point?

Yes. Clearly.

I have just highlighted a similar point with Phoenix's last post.

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Just as you want to be able to decide if another person's "beliefs" harm you or impinge on your rights...I WANT TO DECIDE THAT ALSO when it applies to me.

So what's the problem? I agree with you 100%!

One of the things that I have learned in life is to "choose my battles". I was going to school, when the "under God" was added to the pledge. Even at my tender age, I felt uncomfortable with it, although at the time, I probably could not verbalize why.

What I would do is just stand silently, when the phrase was mentioned, which is what I do to this day. I DO understand the implications of the change of the pledge wordings, but I think that there are other issues that are more important. I don't have the strength or the inclination to fight about everything.

I am far more concerned about things like tax money given to "faith based" programs, and the stonewalling of science by making in difficult to engage in stem cell research.

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You can't have it both ways, Phoenix.

Bib-Sure I can, if that is what I want!

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If you respect their belief then it shouldn't be conditional.

If you had read what I wrote, I said that I might not respect a person's beliefs, but I respect their RIGHT to hold those beliefs, If they don't affect me negatively. As you know, I do not believe in a God. I respect another person's right to believe in a God, even though I may think that their reasoning may be flawed. I draw the line, when someone attempts to foist their beliefs on me. Get it?

My favorite motto in life is, "The right to swing your arm ends at the other fellow's nose!"

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

If you had read what I wrote, I said that I might not respect a person's beliefs, but I respect their RIGHT to hold those beliefs, If they don't affect me negatively. As you know, I do not believe in a God. I respect another person's right to believe in a God, even though I may think that their reasoning may be flawed. I draw the line, when someone attempts to foist their beliefs on me. Get it?

I read it, alright, but you DONT respect their right to hold their belief, not if it is conditional on how it affects you - get it?

If you respect their beliefs or their right to hold those beliefs then you will accept the WHOLE package, not just what you think is acceptable. Otherwise you are only paying lipservice to the idea of "respect."

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If you respect their beliefs or their right to hold those beliefs then you will accept the WHOLE package, not just what you think is acceptable. Otherwise you are only paying lipservice to the idea of "respect."

Bib- I understand what you are saying, but I stand by my "take" on this issue. People like bin Laden, Hitler, or Jim Jones, deserve no respect in my book. They have broken my prime rule, and used their beliefs to hurt others.

If you consider that "lip service", I do believe that you are entitled to your opinion, (even if I don't agree with it!)

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Bib- I understand what you are saying, but I stand by my "take" on this issue. People like bin Laden, Hitler, or Jim Jones, deserve no respect in my book. They have broken my prime rule, and used their beliefs to hurt others.

Now this is different from what you stated previously! They "deserve no respect in my book."

I understand that statement - it is non-conditional - you are clearly stating that you DO NOT respect their beliefs. But were you to say that you respected their beliefs and then decided that because they had hurt someone because of their beliefs, then that is a conditional statement, which is contrary to the basic precept of respect.

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Frank: Good subject, I'm glad you made this.

My take on this issue is fairly similar to both yours and Phoenix's. If someone has a belief I do not share, then as long as he/she doesn't try to force that belief on me, then I have little problem with it. If, however, they do, then they are both a) forcing me to defend my stance, and b) inviting a similar confrontation over their belief.

This is the problem I have with many hard-core religious members; they try to convert me to their faith, but when I ask questions about the validity of their faith, they act affronted, which strikes me as hypocritical.

That takes care of everyday life, but as far as debates go, I agree with what I believe frank was saying: As this is a debate forum, people should always expect their views to be challenged, regardless of how valid their point is. As long as this challenge is done in a respectful manner, there should never be any question about this. Those are my thoughts on the matter, anyway.

Bibliophile: I think I've made it clear in the beginning of this post, but just to be precise, i 'll say that Phoenix isn't "having it both ways." Once someone tries to force their beliefs on others, the situation changes from a debate to an attack. That's the difference.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

I think that there is a big difference in respecting a person's beliefs, as opposed to respecting a person's right to hold those beliefs. I believe that a person has the right to their beliefs, so long as they do not impinge upon my rights.

I would not presume to attempt to talk a person out of their beliefs, unless I cared for them, and believed that their beliefs were harmful to them. (ie, cults). The only way that I would even have a discussion about differences in belief is if it were between myself, and consenting adults.

There are many beliefs that people hold that I think are puerile and naive. Unless my opinion is asked, I would not dream of challenging those beliefs. I do not think that that is appropriate.

Hmmm - odd to be on a discussion board, then. I think that challenging people's beliefs, and having one's own challenged, is why most of the discussion threads exist.

If you post here, expect to be challenged - if you want agreement, go somewhere specializing in agreeing with the sort of beliefs you hold.

That being said, civilized discourse is preferable - but we are human beings - it ain't always gonna happen.

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Perhaps the great equalizer is "I like you as a person, but don't really give a crap what you believe." They do say ignorance is bliss. Smile

Mind you, I'm all for civilized discourse, as I'm quite malleable and open to others opinions, despite my clowning and sometimes semi-authoritative demeanor. I just love listening to other people's views on things, of all nature.

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Should we show respect for other people's beliefs?

If we want to get along, then yes.
If they offend us, then say so, and ask them to be less offensive.
If they insist on pushing their beliefs on us then that doesn't deserve respect.

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Everyone should believe in something.

I believe I'll have another beer.

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To some extent, I say YES.

I don't like being ridiculed because I choose to believe in God, and don't want to ridicule someone because they don't.

What pisses me off is when someone doesn't believe and wants to force me to see things thier way....then its BACK OFF.

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Back in the days, I used to invite Jehovah's Witnesses into my home for their "bible chats". They were generally out the door within fifteen minutes, but it was fun to counter their inanity with bible quotes. I must say, I agree with your post there Bib.

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Thanks Cav...fancy coming round to my place for a chat? I think I can beat 15 minutes. :wink:

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Bibliophile the BibleGuru wrote:

Thanks Cav...fancy coming round to my place for a chat? I think I can beat 15 minutes. :wink:

Probably. Don't plan on converting me or anything, but anything I can do in Ireland is wonderful to me. Those JWs are just dumb, dumb, dumb, not to mention intrusive prosletyzing freaks. I'm up pretty early on Sundays, but not that bloody early. Very Happy

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Sorry to digress, Frank et al.

Cav, I once invited 2 JW's into my home to discuss the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately for them, I knew more about their book than they did (no, I am not a JW!), which was very embarrassing. I asked them if they ever wanted to discuss Mormonism with me again that they should at least understand it first themselves.

Anyhow, they left dejected, and couldn't explain why there was no archeological evidence to support the wanderings of the children of Israel in America, which apparently one of their angels, Moroni, said there should be. It was hard for them to get over that!

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I think that many, when they say "respect my beliefs" really mean "indulge me while I rant". "Hear how good my imagination is" is the intended meaning more often than not.

I think we should respect eachothers beliefs. But this respect should be mutual. We cannot respect a belief that denies credibillity to any other beliefs. At least, we cannot take it seriously. We can respect Osama Bin Ladens beliefs, his actions are another thing entirely.

Also,whenever a fact comes into play that disproves the belief, and the believer still believes, then he does not respect his own intellect, and that is sad.

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Cyracuz wrote:

I think that many, when they say "respect my beliefs" really mean "indulge me while I rant". "Hear how good my imagination is" is the intended meaning more often than not.

IMO, it goes well beyond that. It's used as a cover for people to say "Society has setup all these nice rules and customs but I want to do something that violates some of them and you have to "respect my beliefs" and let me do whatever I want to do!".

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Should we show respect for other people's "beliefs?"

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