18
   

Trump's embassy move to Jerusalem 'self-destructive'

 
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 7 Dec, 2017 03:31 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The Palestinians have rights throughout Palestine in accordance with various international treaties and resolutions,

That is incorrect. The Palestinians have the right only to be citizens of the Palestinian micro state. They have no right to be citizens of other nations.
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Thu 7 Dec, 2017 04:44 pm
@oralloy,
So what is it about this move that makes you happy? Is this something you have yearned for for many many years? How does any of this improve your way of life.?
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Thu 7 Dec, 2017 05:21 pm
@oralloy,
No, what is incorrect is your assertion.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 01:55 am
@InfraBlue,
He's one of those people incapable of seeing the World as it is, but rather as he imagines it is. He's delusional, and dangerously so, his delusions, and those of people like him are responsible for most of the evil in this World, not least the murder of thousands of innocent children every year by NRA supporters.

He thinks in absolutes, black and white, no grey, no reason no sense.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 02:09 am
With all the fuss about Trump's provocative actions it's easy to forget what's happening in the WB right now.

Quote:
As I write this letter, our village, Susiya, located in the South Hebron Hills of the occupied West Bank of Palestine, is under immediate threat of demolition. The only way to stop the demolition is through international pressure.

PLEASE SIGN THIS LETTER WITH YOUR NAME, INSTITUTION OR ORGANISATION

On 22 November 2017 the Israeli State Attorney’s Office announced that within 15 days they plan to demolish 20 buildings, which represent one-fifth of our village. This will violate the fundamental human rights of around 100 villagers, half of them children. The 20 buildings are our homes and also provide shelter for our animals. The timing of the demolition - in the middle of winter - could not be more devastating. It will leave us vulnerable and exposed to freezing rain and harsh winds. Our health clinic which provides health services for around 500 people from our own and surrounding communities, is among the buildings they plan to demolish. The Israeli authorities also want to demolish our village council which provides services for 350 local residents.

UPDATE: On 5 December 2017 the Israeli State Attorney’s office announced that the state plans to demolish approximately 40% of the structures in the village of Susiya. The state’s notification reveals that the number of buildings slated for demolition suddenly doubled, without prior warning and contrary to the state’s previous commitments. This means that, where previously 20% of the structures were facing imminent demolition, now 40% of structures in the village – including the only school of the village and solar panels which are the only source of electricity – are facing immediate demolition. The school and the solar panels were built with European funding.

In 2012 we commissioned a master plan for our village, which was rejected several times by the Israeli authorities. The rejection prevents us from building houses together with the necessary infrastructure such as running water, electricity and paved roads to create a sustainable life in our village. It leaves us no choice but to remain on our land living in tents, under very difficult conditions, forbidden from building or repairing anything, in order to protect our land from the threat of annexation by the surrounding settlements. In the Israeli government’s recent response it was agreed to examine the legal principle of the planning issue. Yet despite the potential to develop a master plan for the village, the government states that it will demolish the 20 buildings immediately. And as we know from past experience, if they come to demolish once, nothing will prevent them coming back and trying to demolish the rest of our village.

The plan to demolish Susiya is a part of an extensive campaign of demolitions in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Last year saw the largest number of demolitions in over a decade. This reality has nothing to do with democracy or the rule of law. Instead, the Israeli government has repeatedly violated its obligations to us as protected persons living under occupation. In accordance with international law, Israel has an obligation to provide for the needs of the local protected population, an obligation it openly shirks. Furthermore, it will be a war crime if the Israeli government forcefully displaces our village.

We therefore demand:

-No forced demolition of our village, Susiya
-The right to self-determination over the natural development of our village
-Acceptance of our master plan and thereby the planning and building of concrete houses and the necessary infrastructure

The Village Council of Susiya appeals to the international community to stand with us in all possible ways in the face of enforced expulsion by the Israeli state.

Nasser Nawajaa, Susiya Village Council spokesperson


I've signed this petition.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-the-demolition-of-susiya-8752baff-ca14-466e-b8f7-23edc5cbe229
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 04:17 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
So what is it about this move that makes you happy?

After years of the Palestinians and their demented supporters rejecting peace and taking unilateral moves that undermine the peace process, it is nice to see the good guys respond with some unilateral moves of their own.


glitterbag wrote:
Is this something you have yearned for for many many years?

It's pretty minor. Not something notable enough to be a goal.

What I truly yearn for is for Israel to finish building the Security Fence, including around Jerusalem and in other sensitive areas where the world currently pressures them not to finish it, declare the Security Fence as their official international border, and annex all land to the west of the Security Fence.

And then I'd like to see them begin heavy development of the E-1 Area to cement that reality.


glitterbag wrote:
How does any of this improve your way of life.?

It doesn't. It's just nice to see the good guys standing up for themselves.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 04:18 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
No, what is incorrect is your assertion.

No, when I pointed out that the Palestinians have no right to be citizens of any country other than their own, I was completely correct.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 04:19 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
He's one of those people incapable of seeing the World as it is, but rather as he imagines it is. He's delusional, and dangerously so,

Says the guy who can't point out a single thing that I'm wrong about.


izzythepush wrote:
not least the murder of thousands of innocent children every year by NRA supporters.

No such murders.


izzythepush wrote:
He thinks in absolutes, black and white, no grey, no reason no sense.

Well I'm certainly not accepting of evil.

Why do people always try to justify evil by claiming it as "reasonable" or "sensible"?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 04:20 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
As I write this letter, our village, Susiya, located in the South Hebron Hills of the occupied West Bank of Palestine, is under immediate threat of demolition. The only way to stop the demolition is through international pressure.

Let me guess, this is taking place in Area B, right?

If the Palestinians want Area B for themselves they need to first make peace with Israel.

"No peace" means that the Palestinians in Area B will slowly be forced out over coming generations until Area B is open for the settlers to move in.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 06:27 am
The state of Israel was created at the end of November, 1947, pursuant to United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181. You can read that resolution on-line, from the Yale University Law School, by clicking here. Israel has never honored the terms of that resolution. In the grip of Zionist governments, the state of Israel has consistently driven Palestinian Muslims from their land, denied their water rights and their legitimate land claims. In the grip of Zionist governments, the state of Israel has consistently bargained internationally in bad faith, especially with regard to the illegal settlements on land legitimately claimed by Muslim Palestinians. They have denied the Palestinian right of return, while advancing the absurd claim that the land is theirs because they lived there before 160 CE, at which time they were expelled by the Romans. Using that "logic," all Americans of European descent on both American continents should be expelled, and return to the European homelands of their ancestors.

Certainly the existence of the state of Israel is an accomplished fact, and needs to be accepted in all negotiations. At the same time, the crimes and bad faith of successive Zionist governments must be accepted in all negotiations. The map below shows the proposed state of Israel as submitted by the World Zionist Organization to the 1919 Paris Peace Conference:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/ZionistPalestine1919.gif

(Source at the Jewish Virtual Library, which can hardly be considered an Antisemitic organization.)

As can clearly be seen, Zionists who drew up that map in 1918 were attempting to claim southern Lebanon, the Golan heights, the western part of the Trans-Jordan, and the eastern part of the Sinai peninsula. There will never be peace as long as there are Zionist governments in Israel, negotiating in bad faith, and attempting to steal land from the Muslim Palestinians.

President Plump, with another of his trade mark idiotic moves has just set the peace process back by decades.

EDIT: The map above by the World Zionist Organization in 1918 shows a claim to land which the Israelis never occupied or controlled at any time in history.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 07:06 am
For years I have avoided the threads, re Israel and the Palestinians, because I feared I might be categorized as anti-Semitic. But I see the situation pretty much the same as setanta. The only US president that tried very hard to negotiate peace, seems to me, was Jimmy Carter. His work was essentially undone, after he left office.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 07:22 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The state of Israel was created at the end of November, 1947, pursuant to United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181. You can read that resolution on-line, from the Yale University Law School, by clicking here. Israel has never honored the terms of that resolution.

Israel is not alone. No one has ever honored the terms of that resolution.


Setanta wrote:
In the grip of Zionist governments, the state of Israel has consistently driven Palestinian Muslims from their land, denied their water rights and their legitimate land claims. In the grip of Zionist governments, the state of Israel has consistently bargained internationally in bad faith, especially with regard to the illegal settlements on land legitimately claimed by Muslim Palestinians.

Wrong. Israel has repeatedly bargained in good faith, only to have the Palestinians answer with lies and/or aggression.

Your outrageous denials of this reality legitimizes Israel's subsequent seizures of the disputed land. While I'm sure it was not your intention to help legitimize Israel's ownership of this land, your involuntary aid is much appreciated.

I wonder if future settlers will erect a monument of thanks to you and all of the other people whose outrageous denials of Israel's fair peace offers made it possible for Israel to keep all the land.


Setanta wrote:
They have denied the Palestinian right of return,

And rightly so. A two-state solution doesn't involve one side flooding in to overwhelm the other state.


Setanta wrote:
while advancing the absurd claim that the land is theirs because they lived there before 160 CE, at which time they were expelled by the Romans.

Hardly absurd. The Jews are the legitimate indigenous population of the West Bank area.


Setanta wrote:
President Plump, with another of his trade mark idiotic moves has just set the peace process back by decades.

Not at all. The Palestinians set the peace process back when they refused to ever make peace. YOU set the peace process back when you outrageously denied the fairness of Israel's past peace offers. European governments set the peace process back when they made unilateral moves to recognize the Palestinian state.

At this point, the peace process is already destroyed. Trump can't harm something that is already dead.

All Trump is doing is acknowledging the reality that you and others have already killed the peace process and it is now time for America to help Israel cement their position in a post-peace-process world.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 07:27 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
For years I have avoided the threads, re Israel and the Palestinians, because I feared I might be categorized as anti-Semitic.

That is easy enough to avoid. All you need to do is not falsely accuse Jews or Israelis of imaginary crimes.


edgarblythe wrote:
But I see the situation pretty much the same as setanta. The only US president that tried very hard to negotiate peace, seems to me, was Jimmy Carter. His work was essentially undone, after he left office.

I thank you for taking such an unreasonable position that it now legitimate for Israel to seize land by force. Israel wouldn't have been able to keep that land without you.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 08:36 am
@edgarblythe,
A lot of anti Semites support Israel.

Quote:
The Haavara (Transfer) Agreement, negotiated by Eliezer Hoofein, director of the Anglo-Palestine Bank,[16] was agreed to by the Reich Economics Ministry in 1933, and continued, with declining German government support,[17] until it was wound up in 1939.[18] Under the agreement, Jews emigrating from Germany could use their assets to purchase German-manufactured goods for export, thus salvaging their personal assets during emigration. The agreement provided a substantial export market for German factories in British-ruled Palestine. Between November, 1933, and December 31, 1937, 77,800,000 Reichmarks, or $22,500,000, (values in 1938 currency) worth of goods were exported to Jewish businesses in Palestine under the program.[17] By the time the program ended with the start of World War II, the total had risen to 105,000,000 marks (about $35,000,000, 1939 values).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

The argument being that if the Jews have a homeland, they should go there, and get out the country they were born in.

Note the spike in anti Semitic crime in America since Trump got in, it will only increase. Again Israel has been given what it wants so what is the diaspora still doing in America?

Note how Netanyahu has been very muted regarding the attacks in America, it suits him, a cowed diaspora is less likely to criticise Israel just in case everything goes tits up. Netanyahu has even tried to let Nazi Germany off the hook by trying to blame the Grand Mufti for the Holocaust.

I don't know if you remember CarlosleBaron. He was a Holocaust denier. I pointed out his Holocaust denial to Oralloy on numerous occasions with links, and he pointedly refused to condemn any of it. That's how worthless his accusations of anti Semitism are, any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic, but Holocaust denial is fine and dandy as long as it's another right wing extremist doing it.

This is bad news for everyone, not least the diaspora who need to be protected from the approaching storm.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 08:38 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Hardly absurd. The Jews are the legitimate indigenous population of the West Bank area.
So "indigenous population" is religion related here. Why?
What about those, who lived there but had a different kind of belief?

And can some loose the status to be the "legitimate indigenous population"?
For instance, when getting a different religion? (The Saxons became Christians and lost that status of "legitimate indigenous population" to the Franks?)
Or when being invaded? (Same example as above, but extended since the Saxons invaded the territory of other indigenous population)

-------------

The USA and 108 more countries, btw, have their Dutch embassy in the capital of the province of South Holland ('s-Gravenhage aka The Hague) and not in the capital of the Netherlands (Amsterdam).
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 08:40 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
I don't know if you remember CarlosleBaron. He was a Holocaust denier. I pointed out his Holocaust denial to Oralloy on numerous occasions with links, and he pointedly refused to condemn any of it. That's how worthless his accusations of anti Semitism are, any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic, but Holocaust denial is fine and dandy as long as it's another right wing extremist doing it.

Quit lying. If you ever pointed any such thing out, it was when you were on ignore for your outrageous personal attacks against me, and you know it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 08:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
So "indigenous population" is religion related here. Why?

Because that is how the indigenous population defines itself.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
What about those, who lived there but had a different kind of belief?

I am unsure which people you are talking about. However, they would be indigenous if that was their ancestral home.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
And can some loose the status to be the "legitimate indigenous population"?
For instance, when getting a different religion?

No.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
Or when being invaded? (Same example as above, but extended since the Saxons invaded the territory of other indigenous population)

Being invaded does not rob the indigenous population of their rights. Thus the Islamic invasions did not rob Israelis of their indigenous rights.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 09:23 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Being invaded does not rob the indigenous population of their rights. Thus the Islamic invasions did not rob Israelis of their indigenous rights.
On the other hand, it is correct and legitim that invaders keep the survived indigenous population in reservations, isn't it?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 09:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
No.

I'd like to see our courts enforce all those treaties that the US government made with Native Americans and then violated.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Dec, 2017 10:45 am
Oralloy is also very chummy with Krumple, who although not denying the Holocaust outright questions the extent of it, which is almost as bad in my book.

The indigenous Jewish population in Israel are the Sephardic Jews, and they get treated pretty badly by the European/American colonists too.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 12/08/2021 at 08:06:42