14
   

Me Too

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 03:43 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:


We are seeing women who have stayed silent for years deciding that the benefits of coming forward are finally outweighing the risks. More men who have abused their positions of power are finding themselves held accountable. That's a change.

I suppose there will always be men who minimize the complaints of women, who dismiss statistics on rape as exaggerated, who suggest that when women complain of discrimination in the workplace they are just trying to get unfair advantage...


I see what you did there, Engineer. You are telling the story that the only people questioning the political narrative are ignorant men.

Of course, your story doesn't match reality. Many of the people questioning the exaggeration of rape staistics on campus are women... including intelligent women who are well regarded as academics and researchers.

Women don't all fit into an ideological box any more than men do. Your opinions on these issues have more to do with your political beliefs than your gender.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 03:45 pm
Engineer got it right. Women don't do that stuff.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 06:39 pm
Quote:
Yashar Ali 🐘 Retweeted
Dylan Byers‏Verified account @DylanByers 1m1 minute ago
More
Today alone, 5 people reached out w/ sexual harassment allegations against 5 different media figures. This isn’t slowing. It’s snowballing.


I hope more people ask their friends and family, and that people feel able to talk about it.

I know I'm not ready to talk about a lot of it, but I've started.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 06:57 pm
@ehBeth,
I think you are going to see a few things happen.

1) Nearly everyone is shocked and appalled by the abuse of power in the workplace by men like Weinstein, O'Reilly and Ailles. Liberals and conservatives and men and women alike are all condemning this behavior. If you listen to the voices of conservatives, you will see that this is true. This should be a moment of unity. But it won't be because the politics beyond this issue are too divisive.

2) There is no agreement about what this means as part of a general political narrative. Liberals are trying to use this story to confirm a narrative they have been saying for years. Conservatives no part of this. If you listen to the voices of conservative women (you can go read what they are saying on conservative sites if you choose), you will see that this is true.

3) There will be a backlash (in fact there already is). This backlash includes women. Liberals won't understand it, or accept it. But it is real, women don't all line up for progressive political causes.

4) The divisiveness you will see on this issue will be liberal vs. conservative. The fault lines will line up along the same lines we always see. Women will be on both sides.

We all agree about the abuse of power from these powerful men. We disagree about the general narrative. What side you fall down on with these issues depends on your pre-existing political stances... not on your gender. Progressives tend to ignore women who disagree with them... as if these voices don't count.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 07:02 pm
@maxdancona,
The sad thing is that there is no room for conversation. Liberals and Conservatives a like want to push a political narrative rather than listen to each other.

A conversation involves listening to different voices, including people with whom you disagree. What we are getting instead is a one-sided, exclusive campaign that shoots down any differing viewpoint or experience that doesn't fit the narrative.

A real conversation doesn't seem at all possible in today's political climate. This thread, and the Facebook campaign of outrage that inspired it are just part this failure. It's a shame.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 07:09 pm
@ehBeth,
I don't see it as a necessity for everyone to detail their experiences, if it is painful or embarrassing, or whatever.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 01:06 am
Quote:
A Canadian judge has come under fire for noting a sexual assault victim's weight and appearance in court.
Quebec court Judge Jean-Paul Braun also suggested the victim was a "little flattered" by the attention she received from her alleged assailant.
He made the comments while presiding over the trial of a taxi driver accused of assaulting a 17-year-old passenger.
Provincial Justice Minister Stéphanie Vallée called the comments unacceptable and has filed a complaint.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41755852

Clearly there's still a long way to go. I don't think this is a Canada thing, I think there's judges like that throughout the developed world.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 04:35 am
It covers the political spectrum and all sexes and the courts often express sexist attitudes. Makes you ponder, how far evolved are we, after all?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 04:47 am
More women accusing G H W Bush of grabbing their ass. Comments on a Facebook thread excuse him or question why the women waited so long if they are offended - People don't realize how powerless victims often feel. That he did it is beyond question, as he has apologized and tried to say it was all a joke.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  5  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 07:30 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I see what you did there, Engineer.

I don't think you did.

I don't see this thread or the Me Too effort in a political light and I don't think it was intended to be political. I think both were meant to be an opportunity for people to share their experiences, stories that maybe they've never shared before. Like Cal Thomas, as someone who has not experienced sexual assault and effectively lives in a bubble where sexual assault is hidden, the stories of the men and women here (including you) who have come forward, people who I have never met, but I consider part of the my A2K family, have changed my perceptions. Their stories have been added to the tapestry of my understanding of the world. Thomas and I are pretty far apart on the political spectrum but the impact was the same - the story transcends politics. There will be people who for whatever reason don't want to hear or acknowledge these stories, who want to shut down threads like this for their own reasons. Perhaps the stories of others remind them of their own stories, the stories of loved ones or times when they could have made a difference and did not, I don't know. Maybe it's just politics. I do consider the opportunity for people to speak here to be too important to allow those people to succeed. I'm not here to confirm my political world view. After this thread appeared to be dying, I started posting to try to revive it because I want to learn more.

You say that this thread doesn't represent you - it could if you need it to. If you want to share more, I think you would actually find a receptive ear here. I know that I will listen. If you don't, that is fine too.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 09:35 am
@engineer,
Of course it's political.

You start with a slogan, "#MeToo", or "United We Stand", or "Support the Troops". Almost all Americans agree with broad slogans such as these. But then, people attach political meanings to them.

In this thread, made up of mostly progressive men, we have had statements about the need for censorship and rape statistics on campus. These aren't directly related with sexual harassment in the workplace (or supporting our troops for that matter). These are political issues that many Americans disagree about.

Once you get past the slogan... the issues are deeply divided along partisan lines. Your political stances have much more to do with how you feel about these issues than your gender. You agree with progressive men. You disagree, dismiss and ignore conservative women on these issue. The polling shows that the divide is along partisan lines, with men and women on both sides.

Viral campaigns on Facebook are political in general. Facebook provides a great way to send out political messages wrapped in clever slogans in a way to make the general public receptive to them. Confirmation bias is a powerful political tool.

Everyone wants to say "it's not political when I'm right".
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 10:55 am
@maxdancona,
The thread invited all voices to post their personal experiences. Because you can read political leaning in one or two posts, you have to go nuts and derail the thread? Nobody has interfered with a right wing voice to post here. If they choose not to, why blame the thread? They were offered the opportunity.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 11:08 am
@edgarblythe,
This thread is a bunch of men arguing about the meaning of the experiences of women. It was started by a man, it was dominated by men.

You will undoubtedly blame me for what happened, but if this really a space for people to share personal experience, you could have easily responded maturely to my comments, or ignored them. I would have responded responsibly had I been given the chance, rather than attacked. Having a conversation requires a little give, a little patience and the ability to listen to more than one point of view.

I was quite supportive of anyone who shared a personal experience here. I was the only one to respond to EhBeth's initial posts (and I was very supportive of what she said) and you have all but ignored Osso. If there really was a thread for sharing, I might want to make a comment about my personal feelings... but I would share, and I would accept the experiences of others. That isn't want the thread is about.

Punches were thrown on this thread at the first opportunity. There was no patience given, no room for differences and attempt to reach an understanding. In this way this thread is no different than any other political thread.

Winning the political fight seems to be the most important thing on this thread.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 11:11 am
@maxdancona,
You claim to be acting in the interest of free speech, but apparently only for yourself.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Sat 28 Oct, 2017 06:09 am
Five comic authors on how Me Too makes them feel, good and bad.

https://thenib.com/response-metoo
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sat 28 Oct, 2017 06:22 am
Songs like this likely reinforce the culture
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 28 Oct, 2017 06:26 am
@edgarblythe,
Again, I don't think this is a Canada thing.

Quote:
Sex assault remains one of the most under-reported crimes in Canada. But with only one out of every 10 sex assaults reported by Canadian police resulting in a conviction, is it any wonder that victims doubt justice will be served?
When Jennelle Polok was sexually assaulted by an acquaintance three years ago, she says she hesitated before going to the police.
"It was hard for me to wrap my head around - was this really crossing a line or did I just make this up I my head?"
She kept playing back the night of her attack over and over again in her mind. How she had tried to leave when he got too close to her on the couch, how he had thrown her against the wall, and then onto the couch before taking off her underwear.
"I just froze," she says. "It was like watching a movie taking place, where your floating above yourself. You can see every action that is passing, but you can't do anything about it."
After a month, she said she had to come forward.
"I just thought, I would never do this to somebody, this is wrong," the 31-year-old elementary school teacher told the BBC.
Police eventually charged her alleged attacker with sexual assault, the case made its way through a preliminary hearing and finally, to court.
After spending nearly two years in court proceedings, including five hours on the witness stand, Ms Polok heard the news - her rapist had been acquitted due to lack of evidence.
"I felt happy that it had even made it to the final court," she says, her voice rising. "I should not have felt happy that it made it that far, I should have felt happy that he was convicted."
Ms Polok's story is all too common, a new report from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics revealed on Thursday.
Over a six-year-period, only 20% of alleged sex assaults actually made it to court; 12% of sexual assaults reported by police led to a conviction; and only 7% led to jail time.
The proportion of sex assaults that lead to the accused going to prison is probably even smaller, considering that previous studies have found that only a fraction of sexual assaults are ever reported to police.
Once they are reported to the police, incidents may be classified as "founded", which means police believe a violation of the law took place, or "unfounded", in which case they are dismissed. About one in five sex assaults reported to police are dismissed as unfounded, according to an investigation by the Globe and Mail.
This most recent study by the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics followed 93,501 sexual assaults reported by police as founded as they made their way through the justice system.
The chance of a sex assault moving forward in the justice system - from charges being laid to jail time - dropped by half each step along the way, the report found.
"Sexual assault cases experienced attrition at all levels of the criminal justice system," wrote Cristine Rotenberg, the report's author.


More at link.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41766627
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sat 28 Oct, 2017 06:34 am
As part of an effort to call attention to the cumbersome procedure for reporting sexual misconduct on Capitol Hill, Rep. Jackie Speier (D-CA) on Friday shared the story of an unwanted sexual advance while working as a congressional staffer.
“Like so many of you, I have a ‘Me Too’ story to share. I was working as a congressional staffer. The chief of staff held my face, kissed me, and stuck his tongue in my mouth,” Speier said in a video released Friday. “So I know what it’s like to keep these things hidden deep down inside. I know what it’s like to lie in bed awake at night, wondering if I was the one who had done something wrong. I know what it’s like years later to remember that rush of humiliation and anger.”
“Many of us in Congress know what it’s like because Congress has been a breeding ground for a hostile work environment for far too long,” she added.

Speier plans to introduce legislation to update the process for reporting sexual misconduct on Capitol Hill through the Office of Compliance, hoping to make it easier for staffers to report and address inappropriate behavior.
The congresswoman told Politico that the current system in place is “toothless” and “a joke.”
“There’s no accountability whatsoever,” she said. “It’s rigged in favor of the institution and the members, and we can’t tolerate that.”
Under the current system, victims must attend mediation or counseling for up to three months before they can file a complaint, and members and staffers are not required to attend sexual harassment training, per Politico.
Speier is pushing to change the system for reporting sexual harassment and assault on Capitol Hill after several high-profile men, including Harvey Weinstein, Leon Wieseltier, and Mark Halperin, have been accused of serial sexual misconduct.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 28 Oct, 2017 07:38 am
Good on ya Jez.

Quote:
MPs who abuse or sexually harass women must be "held to account", Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn will say later.
Mr Corbyn will speak out against "a culture where the abuse of women has often been accepted and normalised," including at Westminster.
Conservative MP Justine Greening said anyone who felt they had been sexually harassed should contact the police.
Mr Corbyn will also reject claims he was too slow to suspend a Labour MP for misogynistic and homophobic comments.
On Wednesday, Sheffield Hallam MP Jared O'Mara was suspended by Labour while the party investigated online remarks he made from 2002 to 2004.
Labour had initially said it would not be suspending the MP while the allegations were investigated.
It comes as Downing Street described allegations of sexual harassment in politics as "deeply concerning".
In a speech at the Unite union's Scottish policy conference later, Mr Corbyn will say that in the wake of allegations about movie mogul Harvey Weinstein, the issue of sexual harassment is not one confined to Hollywood.
"Misogyny and sexism are widespread problems across society," he will say.
"Sexual abuse and abusive treatment of women by men is not confined to any one industry, workplace or institution.
"The problem doesn't stop with those who make unwanted advances on women.
"It's a warped and degrading culture that also exists and thrives in the corridors of power, including in Westminster."
Mr Corbyn will also encourage women who have been abused or harassed by MPs to speak out, adding that he would not tolerate any form of discrimination or harassment in the Labour Party.
His speech comes amid reports that female researchers and aides in Parliament have been using a WhatsApp group to share information about alleged abusive behaviour by MPs from both the main parties.
And on Saturday, the Times reported that four male MPs, including a minister, have been accused of harassing or propositioning young women inappropriately.
Ms Greening, the Women and Equalities minister, said: "There's no place in Westminster for any of this kind of behaviour.
"Woman who have experienced it should be coming forward to be clear about what's happened to them. It's now long overdue that we stamp this sort of behaviour out."
The prime minister's official spokeswoman said any report of sexual harassment were "deeply concerning" and urged anyone with information to contact the authorities.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41783898
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Sat 28 Oct, 2017 10:02 am
@edgarblythe,
Edgar,

Your prime example of threatening male sexuality is a Black man from the 1950s?

This thread is getting ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
 

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