14
   

Me Too

 
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Mon 8 Oct, 2018 03:11 pm
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/10/kevin-cramer-me-too-heidi-heitkamp-north-dakota-senate-race-sexual-assault-brett-kavanaugh.html

Quote:
Kevin Cramer currently leads Democratic incumbent Heidi Heitkamp by an average of nearly 9 points – a polling advantage that increased markedly over the past two weeks, as the congressman was pushing his “make attempted rape okay again” message.

Nevertheless, Heitkamp persisted in her opposition to Kavanaugh. Despite the perils of defying the president in a state he won by 36 points, the senator declined to vote for the judge’s confirmation – even after it was clear that her vote would make no practical difference either way (which is to say, even after Susan Collins gave a certain other red state Democrat his cue to join the winning team) In a statement explaining her decision, the senator expressed solidarity with sexual assault survivors. And when Heitkamp got win of Cramer’s latest reflections on #MeToo Sunday, she didn’t mince words. Here’s the Times again:

“The better part of my career in public life has been working with victims,” said Ms. Heitkamp, a former state attorney general. “Did you ask him how many victims during this process he actually sat down with, and survivors he sat down with, and visited with personally?”

Then Ms. Heitkamp’s voice grew thick with emotion.

“I think it’s wonderful that his wife has never had an experience, and good for her, and it’s wonderful his mom hasn’t,” she said. “My mom did. And I think it affected my mom her whole life. And it didn’t make her less strong.”

With tears welling in her eyes, Ms. Heitkamp stared intently at a reporter and continued:

“And I want you to put this in there, it did not make my mom less strong that she was a victim. She got stronger and she made us strong. And to suggest that this movement doesn’t make women strong and stronger is really unfortunate.”

Ms. Heitkamp’s mother, Doreen, died in April at 88 on what would have been her 66th wedding anniversary. The senator said her mother was sexually assaulted as a teenager.

Alas, in North Dakota, indignation on behalf of sexual assault survivors doesn’t play as well as unflinching loyalty to Donald J. Trump. The Roughrider State is much whiter, and a bit less college-educated, than America as a whole – and 59 percent of white voters without college diplomas found Kavanaugh more credible than Ford, according to a Quinnipiac poll released last week.

But, for her part, Heidi Heitkamp would rather lose a referendum on #MeToo, then remain strategically neutral on the question of whether the women who make up that movement are “tough.”


good on her
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2018 03:51 am
Interesting portrait of one of the new Nobel prices, Congolese gynecologist Denis Mukwege:

https://www.dw.com/en/mukwege-do-not-treat-sexual-violence-as-taboo/a-45788289
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Tue 9 Oct, 2018 08:25 am
https://scontent.fhou1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42974915_10213522685681857_5437670600963260416_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&oh=fd7af378d7b072638469edd33a1bf24e&oe=5C1509DC
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 10 Oct, 2018 01:20 am
This is the story of a woman who was raped at a party, it answers a lot of the questions about why such victims don't go straight to the police. The article is quite long so I've just quoted a couple of passages.

Quote:
I’d seen him around quite a bit at uni. He was good-looking and smart. People talked about him like he was a celebrity. I’d had a fling with one of his friends six months earlier, but we’d never spoken properly. He seemed to shimmer whenever I saw him, and was always surrounded by a group of male friends who all had the effortless cool of people who knew they had the world at their feet.

Later, I woke up lying in the grass. The bass from the party thudded faintly through the ground. I was reassured that I hadn’t gone too far. It was cold, the ground was damp with dew. There was someone on top of me, he was trying to force himself inside me, but my body had frozen. I realised that it was not a dream. I saw who it was. The shock hit me – how could it be him? I knew him, everyone knew him. People you know don’t do this, do they? Had I somehow made him think this was OK?

"I’m going to count you as a notch on my bedpost no matter what,” he said in a low, gruff voice. When I’d heard him speak before, his voice was soft. Now he sounded angry and frustrated.

I knew what I was supposed to do – tell people, call the police – but I was scared that I would be judged for getting too drunk, wearing an almost see-through dress, or taking illegal drugs. They would ask how I ended up lying on the ground with him, on my own with him, and I wouldn’t be able to answer because I didn’t remember. They would ask if he had spiked my drink. I thought he had, but I wouldn’t be able to say for sure either way.

I knew it wasn’t my fault, but I worried that nobody would believe me. I didn’t want to be questioned. I wasn’t ready. If I could go back in time, knowing what I know now, I would report it, but I didn't. Like so many others, I stayed silent - 85% of those who experience sexual violence in England and Wales today don't report it.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/92f0eb4e-3cf2-4f5a-840e-3a5ba92d8bea
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 10 Oct, 2018 04:08 am
@Olivier5,
And here is an interview with the other Nobel Peace Prize winner this year, Nadia Murad.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-45803975/nobel-peace-prize-winner-nadia-murad-it-s-a-huge-responsibility
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:01 am
Read in the NYT:

I’m a straight woman, and I’ve been on a series of dates with men lately where they end the night by saying: “Just so you know, given the last year and #MeToo, I am not going to make a pass at you. You are going to have to make the first move.” I’ve been struggling to find a succinct and not-angry response. Mostly, I’ve felt grossed out that they missed the whole point of #MeToo. I say good night and never see them again. But it’s happened often enough that I’d like a better reply. Any ideas?

The NYT's advice is:
Quote:
go with: “That’s O.K. I’m not interested in dating anyone who doesn’t understand consent.”


My take: what's so wrong with the idea that women can make the first move when men are afraid to do so??? Why is that idea not even considered as potentially useful?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:06 am
@Olivier5,
This seems rather shallow on both ends. Just by talking with a woman for a couple of hours, I can get a good feeling for who she is. I have had a few conversations about feminism on the first date... if it is clear that a person isn't compatible with my way of looking at the world, it is best for both of us to get that out of the way soon.

When I was dating around (I am in a relationship now) I met lots of women with what I consider to be a reasonable perspective on #MeToo and a few who didn't.

To each her own.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:18 am
@maxdancona,
Compatibility is not really what this is about. This is about a gender role (men should the ones making passes at women, rather than vice versa) that is clearly outdated and dysfunctional today, but which some women apparently still clinch to. Men have totally lost their dating mojo. Time to raise your game, ladies.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:22 am
@Olivier5,
seems weird to me that they don't get to talking about consent til the end of the date. if either of them is interested in something other than friendship, they need to talk during the date - not at the goodbye. the tone of the reported guys' comment would feel off to me. not that keen on her either - but given some of the relationship posts here, it seems there's a whole world of don't talk to each other people.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:26 am
@Olivier5,
I disagree. When I am dating, all that matters is me and my date. I don't care about gender roles or social trends in an intimate relationship. I care about the person I am with.

There is usually the awkward question of who pays for dinner; which generally leads to the discussion of which parts of the traditional dating rituals we want to stick with. I have never had a problem just talking about it in the first couple of dates.

I almost always am the first person to initiate physical intimacy in a new relationship, starting with kissing. Probably that has to do with cultural expectations, and maybe with evolution...

... but when it comes to being with a beautiful woman, who cares?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:38 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
outdated


it was outdated in the 1970's when I started dating
I was taught - at home and school - that I had to talk to boys about what I wanted, didn't want
it didn't always work really well in practice at the very beginning - but boys/men initiating was not thought to be the only option 40 years ago
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 11:59 am
@ehBeth,
I've never technically dated anyone (mating rituals are different where I come from) but seeing from rol.com. movies (a totally unbiased source of course) it doesn't look super relaxed and fun on first date, more like people observing each other, looking for faults in each other's armour...

It's true that the way the person writing to the NYT describes the "unpass" is a bit offputting. But we don't know how each of the guys really said it.

The funniest thing is that, because human communication is always multi-layered, the "unpass" is in fact a pass... Image the roles reversed. If a woman told me at the end of dinner: "Listen man, given metoo and all, i won't make a pass at you so if you want more of me, you gona have to ask...." Well, I'd get the message and bet even shy me gona ask, if I like her. Because that's an invite if there ever was one.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 12:04 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Image the roles reversed. If a woman told me at the end of dinner:


I'd say she was an idiot for waiting til the end of the date - just as the other person in that date was an idiot. People need to talk. Sure it's easier as an adult than as a teen (or at least that was my experience) but talking makes relationships easier.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 12:11 pm
@ehBeth,
IDK, never was much of a talker. Words don't come easy.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 12:21 pm
@Olivier5,
I am very curious about your "mating rituals" (a horrible term, but you used it and I don't know what else to call them other than "dating").

When you start an intimate relationship I assume that you spend one on one time together first where interest is expressed, right? I am not sure this is that much different than what we do here. There is the idea of going out for dinner, or drinks, or to see a show just you and the object of your affection. Is there a different way to make this happen?

At some point someone needs to make a move... expressing an interest in physical affection. #MeToo hasn't really changed this in my experience.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 12:26 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

I almost always am the first person to initiate physical intimacy in a new relationship, starting with kissing. Probably that has to do with cultural expectations, and maybe with evolution...

Of course it's cultural. There are cultures where both genders equally initiate. Mauritania is a case in point. I lived a year there and was routinely oggled, heckled and exposed to pretty explicit noises/body language by Mauritanian ladies, downtown, in full daylight with folks around... Still remembers the first time one of these ladies (fat and wrinkled) furiously pointed at her own pussy while making eye contact with me, with the following sound coming out of her round mouth: "huh. huh. huh". We were at a public function, a lunch with the prefect... Everybody laughed, even me after the initial shock.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 01:06 pm
@maxdancona,
I always found the term "dating" terribly bireaucratic and deadpan but I can suffer the word if you don't like "mating". Mating is slightly naturalistic but we are animals anyway and it means "finding a mate", which is cool.

In my youth -- that's before instagram, watsap and dating apps; I imagine things are a bit different now -- you'd just approach people you want to be friend with at school or work or wherever you can and you befriend them. If chemistry is good, at some occasion or another one tries a kiss or a longuish hug or a passionate hand holding or something, usually physical. French people kiss each other hello and goodbye, are more tactile than North Americans so that's sort of our way. But one can also speak... I'm just terrible at it myself.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 01:11 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
There are cultures where both genders equally initiate. Mauritania is a case in point. I lived a year there and was routinely oggled, heckled and exposed to pretty explicit noises/body language by Mauritanian ladies, downtown, in full daylight with folks around...


Huh? I didn't know that. That is interesting.

I guess you have a #MeToo story Wink
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 01:39 pm
@maxdancona,
I have had dozens of those cases, a solid half of which during my one year stay in Mauritania. The rest are intuitive women who guessed I was just like romantism-impaired plus a few crazy bitches.

One time here in Rome, at the veggies stand in the supermarket, I was holding a summer squash, wondering if it was fresh enough. This girl came right at me and asked:

Her: Te piacciano le zucchine?
Me: Maah... si?...
Her: A me mi piace questo zucchini! And paf! She grabs my crotch, and walks away laughing.

The thing is, I didn't feel threatened in any if these cases. They're not metoo stories. They are found memories now. I tell them to my buddies and we all laugh about it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 12 Oct, 2018 03:26 pm
@Olivier5,
They could be #MeToo stories... if you were offended or threatened by the behavior. And that is the problem, there was no way for these women to know you wouldn't be offended.

When I was in my twenties, I had a co-worker pat my butt. She was flirting, but at the time I was into religion and this gesture was not appreciated. I wasn't traumatized, I did spin around and make it clear that she shouldn't do it again. She was actually surprised that I didn't enjoy it, and she apologized. Nothing further came of it.
 

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