Me Too

@izzythepush,

This is not about me. I'm saying these things here, but many other people are saying the same things.

Short-term #MeToo was powerful and useful to highlight broken systems of legal or HR recourse. But #MeToo does not provide a sustainable alternative justice system. Long-term, it is bound to be abused because there's no due process involved. Therefore, the longer it lasts, the more abuse will come, and the less people will support the movement.

Today we're seeing dozens of hardcore feminists raising this point, from Deneuve to Atwood to many others. The reason they are saying this is NOT because they are French, or idiots, or bad feminists who want to tear MeToo down to protect their powerful chauvinist male friends...

No. They speak up at this juncture because they CARE for #MeToo, its credibility and legacy, and because now is the time to plan ahead and move on to something more sustainable. These feminists are simply more honest, more thoughtful and less inclined to be part of an echo chamber than others. They are not traitors, they just can see further than the immediate gratification of taking down pigs by tweets. They care for the long-term consequences, that's all.

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@Olivier5,

Let's solution here. What do you think something more sustainable looks like? Let's say a powerful person (say a senator or former US President) is accused by several women of "inappropriate sexual contact", specifically groping them in public. What does a justice system based solution look like?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

A lot of the people saying those things are sad men's rights activists.

Deneuve has played into their hands, Me Too was never about stopping people from normal romantic liaisons, but from people in positions of power, (mostly men,) using that power to coerce vulnerable young people into sexual activity.

The men's rights activists have done their level best to frame is as an attack on men talking to women in bars and useful idiots like Deneuve have acquiesced to that false narrative.

If Deneuve really cared for Me Too, she would have found out about it properly and not let herself be manipulated by its opponents.

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@izzythepush,

I'll chalk that up to "never listen to the French"... Oh well. When #MeToo blows up in mid-air, don't say you haven't been warned.

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@Olivier5,

You would, because turning it into an attack on the French means you can ignore what's being said and continue condemning women who have the temerity to point out they've been sexually assaulted.

I've not mentioned the French, France or self esteem on this thread until you brought them up.

You continue to divert attention away from the topic because you know what you're saying is indefensible.

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@izzythepush,

It's a legitimate concern that conviction by public opinion is not the optimum solution. Is it like Democracy, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others," or can we propose a better system? I'm up for some brainstorming.

My first thought would be that there is no money involved. An official finding would not correspond to a civil award, although it could be used in a future civil trial. My second thought is that the standard would not be "beyond a reasonable doubt". A third thought, perhaps not fully thought out, is that is should be decision by magistrate. This is a real weak spot. Either juries or magistrates could easily have biases that would significantly impact decisions. I'm also not certain about privacy. Many times, part of building the case is to show that it is a pattern of conduct, but the allegation has to be out there to do that. On the other hand, if you put it out there, you get trial by public anyway. Do you have a complaint database where complaints are privately registered an when patterns emerge, the complaint goes public?

3 Replies

@engineer,

Apply the law, I suppose...

But the issue is systemic; it's not about any individual case. I'm thinking along several lines (just thoughts, nothing firmed up yet):

- draw a clearer line between fair, bad, and downright illegal behaviors.

- teach boys not to proposition to girls. The default should be vice-versa: if a girl wants sex, it's for her to ask.

- change who's in charge of investigations of sexual assault in corporations and institutions, making them independent from management, eg the way auditors are in many firms. The same could be done in congress or white house.

- people assaulting people should be disciplined, and people making false accusations or sacking people without due process should be disciplined.

- you're also an agent, not just a victim - hit back whenever you can. If groped or physically threatened yet not overpowered, get violent, aiming at the groin. Even Trump has balls, and they hurt very much when kicked. Take training for that if you need to.

- fight back the latent puritanism by improving sexual education at school, speak about love, seduction and betrayal in the classroom (using literature, theater and movies and the likes), get those boys and girls to be a bit cooler-headed and aware of the emotional dimension, rather than just full of hormones, prejudices and porn-inspired fantasies.

I'm a taker for better ideas.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Alright, whatever. This is not about me, once again.

(I wish it was.... :-) )

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@engineer,

For those in the US, this is a brief article on what the law says about things like groping. Of course in a criminal trial the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" which is almost impossible to prove with no witnesses.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/19/us/politics/donald-trump-has-been-accused-of-groping-but-what-does-the-law-say.html

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@Olivier5,

I think you are overcomplicating things Olivier.

- First of all, the idea that men shouldn't proposition women is ridiculous (I don't know if you were being sarcastic).

- Drawing the line between acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior is the key. Yes, a boss in a workplace using power to pressure employees into sex is clearly unacceptable. For a man to ask an attractive woman to have sex with him in a bar is clearly acceptable (whether she wants it or not).

- This line is getting blurred by the MeToo thing, and the Aziz Ansari story is the best demonstration of this. Weinstein's actions were criminal. Louis CK's were not. Lumping every allegation of sexual harassment with those of sexual assault is the biggest problem with the MeToo narrative.

- If a woman goes to a man's apartment, and he starts undressing her... she has ability to say "No" and to leave. There is an understanding that going to your apartment after a date often leads to sex. The idea that women have no responsibility to clearly communicate, or simply leave is ridiculous.

- In my opinion, every one of these stories should pass the equality test. Switch the genders in the story... if a woman kissed a man before getting verbal permission, would she be harassing him? I would would say that in the office yes it would be, and after a date no it wouldn't. If we are going to strive for equality... then gender shouldn't matter.

The rules for men and women should be the same.

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@engineer,

engineer wrote:

An official finding would not correspond to a civil award, although it could be used in a future civil trial.

an interesting development here is that women are skipping reports to the police and going to civil action first as it gives them more control of the process - and allows them to have their own lawyers

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/albert-schultz-soulpepper-theatre-legal-1.4472426

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@maxdancona,

I'm just trying to think creatively, not trying to be sarcastic. Speaking of hetero sex, somebody has to take the first step, or the species goes the way of the dodo. It's still a widely accepted gender role that men must do the first step in courting. This idea leads many men to assume that it's expected of them to hit on women. That seems to be part of the problem to me.

In theory at least, if you inverse these roles, if we all agree that women must now take the first step, women will feel more secure, in control and not constantly harassed. That was my thinking. We men can easily deal with unwanted proposals, can't we? We won't feel coerced or overpowered or anything like that. Less so in any case than women seem to feel.

Now, i agree with you that this would be hard to justify and implemented. How could one stop a lover to declare his flame? You are right that "the rules for men and women should be the same"... Therefore, neither the male nor the female gender should hold an exclusive right or duty to propose. It should a person of either one or the other gender proposing, eg depending on which party feels more like it. I suppose that's agreeable in principle.

In practice, this is still a change of rule, which still has to be explained to the kids and young adults (assuming it's too late for the rest of us to change).

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

- This line is getting blurred by the MeToo thing, and the Aziz Ansari story is the best demonstration of this. Weinstein's actions were criminal. Louis CK's were not. Lumping every allegation of sexual harassment with those of sexual assault is the biggest problem with the MeToo narrative.

I think the Aziz story is the best demonstration of how the fears we see are overblown. A woman made her complaint and ... just about everyone says there's no issue.

Louis CK's actions are criminal. From the article I linked:

Quote:

Laws governing sex crimes against adult victims vary by state, but they tend to break down into three categories: penetration crimes, exposure crimes and indecent contact crimes.

Louis CK committed exposure crimes, no different than a flasher on the subway.

So back to how we design a system, let's take groping. A powerful person (or even a less powerful person) has a habit of groping people when asked to take pictures with them. Per that article, that is "indecent contact", there is no reason to expect that was part of any courtship ritual, just indecent contact. What's the best way to handle that?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

This idea leads many men to assume that it's expected of them to hit on women. That seems to be part of the problem to me.

from the katykatikate piece I posted last night

Quote:

People are quick to label sex crimes as deviant or aberrant, but the truth is that sexual violence is socialized into us. Men are socialized to **** hard and often, and women are socialized to get fucked, look happy, and keep quiet about it.

Aziz Ansari has been socialized.
And if we don't like the way socialized men do sex, then we need to take a hard look at our society, friend.

__

related to this ... listened to an interesting piece on the radio earlier today where a few young men and women discussed Deneuve/Atwood and said it's basically old people v young people. That Deneuve and Atwood are too old to understand the changes in today's world.

I don't know about that. I'm closer to Deneuve and Atwood in age than I am to katykatikate and I share more of katy's view though it's much more uncomfortable. I could have gone another decade or so without rethinking what I'd been fine with calling a few instances of bad sex.

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@engineer,

Quote:

I think the Aziz story is the best demonstration of how the fears we see are overblown. A woman made her complaint and ... just about everyone says there's no issue.

It isn't true that "just about everyone says there's no issue". Did you read the Jessica Valenti tweet? https://able2know.org/topic/439130-1#post-6577756

I am not in a position to litigate all of the allegations against Louis CK. But the main story I read was when he invited women, who were not working for him, into his hotel room and then masturbated in front of them. This is not a behavior I would ever consider... but inviting someone of the opposite sex into your hotel room is often a prelude (understood by both parties) to sexual activity of some sort. What happened in his hotel room where the women who didn't work for him went voluntarily and were able to leave at will was a little disturbing, but it wasn't a "crime". If Louis CK was flashing in a work environment, that is a different story.

I don't accept the notion that fame is the same as power. If Katy Perry invites me to her hotel room, I go willingly because I want to have sex with her... not because her wealth and fame give her power over me. Of course, if this ever happens, I will retain the right to say "No" or to just get up and leave at any part of the encounter.

Do you accept the notion that the rules should apply equally to men and women (notwithstanding the fact that one gender may behave this way more than the other)?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
I think the Aziz story is the best demonstration of how the fears we see are overblown. A woman made her complaint and ... just about everyone says there's no issue.

It isn't true that "just about everyone says there's no issue". Did you read the Jessica Valenti tweet? https://able2know.org/topic/439130-1#post-6577756

No, but I saw major opinion pieces in papers like the NY Times.

maxdancona wrote:

I am not in a position to litigate all of the allegations against Louis CK. But the main story I read was when he invited women, who were not working for him, into his hotel room and then masturbated in front of them.

And blocked the door so they could not leave and had the power to impact their careers.

maxdancona wrote:

Do you accept the notion that the rules should apply equally to men and women (notwithstanding the fact that one gender may behave this way more than the other)?

Of course.

That said, what is the best way to allow true victims to get redress? How do we address a serial groper who uses his (or her) position to shield himself (herself) from consequences?

We have a bad example of one possible result - the Taylor Swift trial. It's a bad example because the victim had substantial power but still got dragged into court. (For those not familiar, during a photo shoot for a major radio station, everyone posed for a picture. During that, Swift claimed the DJ for the station lifted her skirt and groped her. Apparently this is a thing since others have been accused of the same thing since then. Team Swift quietly complained to the station, the station fired the DJ, the DJ sued Swift for a large sum of money, Swift counter-sued for $1, Swift took the stand and completely destroyed the guy's attorney, winning the dollar.) I think most people would say that Swift took a reasonable approach - finished up her obligations, quietly reported the issue, no public outcry which would tarnish everyone involved including her. What did she get for that? A very public lawsuit with every tabloid reporting on how Swift got groped. It's a bad example because Swift has a lot of stroke and a legal team that is probably the best money can buy, but it still shows the risks women face in coming forward. Swift likely did not want to be a victim in the tabloids, but oh well.

So how should a serial groper be handled? Groping is a misdemeanor assault, so there is a legal recourse, but if the guy denies it and no one saw it, what prosecutor is going to bring forth a charge? If it isn't work related, it would be hard to show civil damages. There will be plenty of people who say no harm, no foul although I think the victims would disagree. Is social shaming the only tool available or is there something better?

1 Reply

@engineer,

The vast majority of victims seeking redress aren't interested in money. Your post on Taylor Swift confirms that.

I think the focus should be on criminal justice. We don't have a statute of limitations over here, and I can't see why there should be one unless it's for very minor crimes. Sexual assault is not a minor crime.

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@engineer,

Louis CK blocking the door is crossing the line (my impression was that the women who reported this left in disgust without being blocked). Louis CK dating other people who work in comedy is not crossing the line. Saying that a manager is using his authority to pressure his or her employees is one thing. Saying that a successful entertainer is using his or her success to pressure people who aren't working for him... that is stretching the limits.

Should I be worried about having sex with junior engineers who aren't working at the same company as I? I think not.

I don't exactly know what "serial groping" entails. If it happens in the workplace, firing is appropriate. If it happens in someone's apartment after a date, it is kind of expected.

Quote:

Groping is a misdemeanor assault, so there is a legal recourse, but if the guy denies it and no one saw it, what prosecutor is going to bring forth a charge? If it isn't work related, it would be hard to show civil damages. There will be plenty of people who say no harm, no foul although I think the victims would disagree. Is social shaming the only tool available or is there something better?

You are confusing two different issues here.

- If you accuse someone of a crime, they have the right to defend themselves. Your example of "serial groping" is no different than any other crime. A prosecutor needs to present evidence stronger than a social media campaign.

- I am not saying "no harm, no foul" in cases where there clearly is harm. I have no problem with anyone who gropes a co-worker being fired right away. However, you need to make a distinction between petting after a date and a boss grabbing an employee.

You ask "what's the best way to let true victims get redress". Politically driven social media campaigns is not the answer.

I am a moderate in this issue, I accept that there are parts of the "MeToo" campaigns are bringing up valid issues. I have no problem with the discussion about workplace abuses and sexual assault. People who are calling for more visibility and more support for victims have my support.

It is the other side of the "MeToo" campaign that I oppose. The redefinition of sexual encounters, the blurring of the line between bad sex and criminal behavior and the exclusion of any story that doesn't match the political narrative.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

related to this ... listened to an interesting piece on the radio earlier today where a few young men and women discussed Deneuve/Atwood and said it's basically old people v young people. That Deneuve and Atwood are too old to understand the changes in today's world.

different but related

more nuanced discussion than the first one I heard

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-january-16-2018-1.4488140/is-there-a-generational-divide-in-the-metoo-movement-1.4488151

about 20 minutes

Quote:

"We often try to say [consent] is not the absence of a no, it's the presence of a yes," Kornak says. "But there's also nuanced aspects of consent, which are things like body language, and verbal cues."

Building that culture of consent is critical for all of us, El Mugammar says.

"Consent doesn't look like: 'I can live with this,' it looks like: 'I want this'."

"There's been a lot of fear of 'Oh well, everything is assault now,'" she says. "Conversations about 'Oh, it's ruining romance," and a lot of those kind of ridiculous notions."

"To me, what's more romantic than having sexual encounters that you really want, and you're really enjoying?"

"I think this culture of violence, and the structures that enable it, and all the other power dynamics that play into it," she says, "are a conversation that needs to happen all the time, and that needs to happen at every level."

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Should I be worried about having sex with junior engineers who aren't working at the same company as I? I think not.

But what if you are a senior engineer who's mentees are know to move quickly up the company ladder and who is known to have the ear of upper management? (We have a manager here who has a lot of stroke with all the top management and is known for soliciting women in the workplace. It has caused a lot of concern among women here over the years. Sure, he's not your boss, but everyone knows he can put his finger on the scale.)

maxdancona wrote:

I don't exactly know what "serial groping" entails. If it happens in the workplace, firing is appropriate. If it happens in someone's apartment after a date, it is kind of expected.

How about at political events? President G.H.Bush has been accused by multiple women of coping a feel during picture events while telling an off-color joke. Senator Franken has been accused of groping women who ask him to pose for pictures or otherwise place themselves in close proximity to him. None of these are in the workplace, nor are they related to dating.

Quote:

- If you accuse someone of a crime, they have the right to defend themselves. Your example of "serial groping" is no different than any other crime. A prosecutor needs to present evidence stronger than a social media campaign.

- I am not saying "no harm, no foul" in cases where there clearly is harm. I have no problem with anyone who gropes a co-worker being fired right away. However, you need to make a distinction between petting after a date and a boss grabbing an employee.

You ask "what's the best way to let true victims get redress". Politically driven social media campaigns is not the answer.

I see the point, but what is the answer? No prosecutor is going to bring a case of he said/she said, so what is a solution? What would be components of the solution? What is the standard of proof required? We have two extremes currently, the courts which are heavily tilted towards the aggressor and requires a standard of proof that is likely unobtainable and social media which is heavily tilted towards the chaos and requires no proof. What is a system with a better balance?

2 Replies

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