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The latest #MeToo victim. When things get complicated.

 
 
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 07:59 pm
The latest man being accused of sexual harassment is Aziz Ansari. But this story illustrates the problem with a political narrative run by social media. The details... which don't seem to be in question. This is all according to her recounting.

- The woman went on a date with Aziz and ended up in his apartment.
- He started to kiss her, undress her and fondle her breast.
- She said she "felt uncomfortable, but said nothing".
- He said he was going to go get a condom.
- She said "let's relax a sec."
- He then continued to kiss her.
- He briefly performed oral sex on her. Then asked her to return the favor.
- She did.
- She claims that she was giving "cues" that she didn't want to continue. She apparently said nothing intelligible to this effect.
- He asked for sex.
- She then directly said "No".
- He stopped.
- She cleaned up and left.

Now here is the question.... what responsibility do women have for their own actions? This a grown women on a date in a man's apartment. The idea of adults having sex in this situation is not unexpected. She clearly consents to oral sex. And when she says "No" clearly, he stops. I think Aziz's behavior was consistent with any single man who wants sex. Many women would respond positively to Aziz in this case, and many others would have the maturity enough to say "No thank you" clearly and leave.

The idea that women need are fragile creatures that can't speak up for themselves should be offensive to anyone who believes in sexual freedom or equality.

What do you think?

Original article (as recounted by the woman involved): https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355


 
maxdancona
 
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Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 08:04 pm
People get caught up in the narrative as an all or nothing thing. Either you accept everything or you accept nothing, there don't seem to be very many people who can consider both sides.

In my opinion there is truth to the MeToo movement; Weinstein was clearly guilty of assault and deserved the wrath of anyone. Louis CK and Al Franken... I am not so sure.

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maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 11:42 am
Jessica Valenti wrote:
A lot of men will read that post about Aziz Ansari and see an everyday, reasonable sexual interaction. But part of what women are saying right now is that what the culture considers "normal" sexual encounters are not working for us, and oftentimes harmful.


This is utterly ridiculous.

If Jessica Valenti doesn't want this sort of "everyday, reasonable sexual interaction", she doesn't need to participate in them. If a man invites her to his apartment after a date she can say no. If a man starts to kiss her, she can say stop. If a man starts to undress her and she doesn't want sex, she can get up and leave.

There are two problems here. The idea is that there aren't any women who enjoy sexual encounters and even (horrors) seek them out. And, the idea that women in a sexual situation they got themselves into can't clearly say "no" or decide to simply leave.

Feminism should be saying that men and women are both adults and equally responsible for what happens between them (barring use of physical force). There are many sexual encounters that start out the same way that end up being quite enjoyable for both participants.

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ky06
 
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Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 10:54 am
that was exactly my thoughts but I'm conflicted with the reason the he should've seen the 'cues'.
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maxdancona
 
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Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 12:10 pm


I can't decide whether, given what happened after this set, this is funny or not. I think it is.
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