0
   

Iraq through Iraqis' eyes

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:38 pm
I would suggest that the UN, by itself, has no capability to prevent genocide.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:46 pm
Perhaps it doesn't. But it sort of makes it a toothless organization don't you think? If the U.N. can't do anything without the U.S.doing it, then what do we need the U.N. for and why should we ask it for permission to do anything? Some here on A2K suggest that all the other U.N. countries should be contributing pretty much the same troop levels as we are in Iraq and it is George Bush's fault that they aren't doing so. But since they aren't doing so, they have all these idle troops, yes? So why couldn't those troops take care of things in the Sudan?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:50 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Why do you assume that we have not actually looked up anything actually written by an Iraqi? I actually have read a lot.

I'm going on what is posted here on A2K. Practically never an Iraqi source and in fact, rarely a factual news report - just a litany of columns and op-eds from your various conservative media sources.

Not that the leftists do all that much better; there, too, the what I was going to call, in a new thread I didn't get round to starting, terror of the op-eds.

Plenty of interpretations. Little interesting data or stories from the ground. Nothing that's not first gone through the ideological spin of the commentariat.

Foxfyre wrote:
Why are you so quick to believe those who have a negative view and so eager to dismiss those who speak positively?

I am not. <shrugs>

Show me where I've eagerly dismissed an actual Iraqi source speaking positively about the situation on the ground ...

Now still more columnists, yes, those I have come to dismiss pretty much off-handedly.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:52 pm
Wow...the thinking in this thread is reaching new lows.

We never need to ask the United Nations for permission to do anything...but it would be nice...and probably much, much, much better for the world...if we worked to improve the organization...and then operated within it rather than as renegades bullies getting our way purely by dint of our size and strength.

The United Nations is the best hope we humans have of getting past this most difficult time in our development. Much better for us...much better for the world if we operated under that assumption than under some being suggested here.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Perhaps it doesn't. But it sort of makes it a toothless organization don't you think? If the U.N. can't do anything without the U.S.doing it, then what do we need the U.N. for and why should we ask it for permission to do anything? Some here on A2K suggest that all the other U.N. countries should be contributing pretty much the same troop levels as we are in Iraq and it is George Bush's fault that they aren't doing so. But since they aren't doing so, they have all these idle troops, yes? So why couldn't those troops take care of things in the Sudan?



<edited for clarity>
I know this has already been argued a hundred times elsewhere. The UN is not a government, it is a cooperative organisation of governments. It's kind of like saying, well, if Congress can't do anything without congressmen then what's it for?

It is toothless by design -- we wouldn't have it any other way.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/ch-chp1.htm

Quote:

The Purposes of the United Nations are:

1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

3. To achieve international cooperation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

4. To be a center for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.



It really is kind of tiresome, but do you see any contradiction in crowing about how we are the most powerful nation on earth in one breath, and deriding the UN as being powerless in the next? Do you think we would be ok with the UN having the kind of power to solve these conflicts without us? Don't you think our government would see that as a threat to our dominance?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:55 pm
Lash wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Lash wrote:
It is sad to see someone devolve completely.

At least he evolved in the first place. Go back under your bridge, Lash.

Hmmm. It seems you are unaware that issuing a personal insult with my name attached is against the TOS. Or maybe you think they don't apply to you.

Yeah ... issuing a personal insult without a name attached is so much more - brave. Fair. Decent. Or a good way to duck the TOS, in any case. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:56 pm
Slow down, FreeDuck. The UN could start by ceasing the practice of avoiding the term genocide... which is a call to action. Which Security Counsel member do you think would object if the Great Debate Society called for interference in Sudan? By avoiding the use of the term genocide, they're showing they haven't even really thought about it. They aren't that powerless. Clearly, they're not even trying. McG had it right.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 02:56 pm
The journalists who become op-ed columnists have to first prove themselves in the trenches as reporters. Therefore, the op-ed pieces are as credible and often better researched than is the average 'straight' news story; however, there is virtually no such thing as a 'straight' news story anymore as is testified by bylines that are practically qualifiers in themselves.

A few decades ago, only the most unusual investigative piece rated a byline--the rest of the news was reported anonymously as it dealt with strict verifiable facts and the entire newsroom stood behind the story. Now news stories are almost as much opinion and speculation as are the op-ed pieces. And the reporters writing them are generally less experienced and less knowledgeable as well. I have written many hundreds of column inches for newspapers for which I never got a byline. That would simply not happen today.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:01 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Slow down, FreeDuck. The UN could start by ceasing the practice of avoiding the term genocide... which is a call to action. Which Security Counsel member do you think would object if the Great Debate Society called for interference in Sudan? By avoiding the use of the term genocide, they're showing they haven't even really thought about it. They aren't that powerless. Clearly, they're not even trying. McG had it right.


I'm just going to say that I agree with Frank.

And that I think it's kind of shitty to say, "let the UN prevent genocides and humanitarian crises without us, we've got lots of work to do to bring democracy to the free world. Da da daaaaaaaa!"
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:05 pm
FreeDuck writes:
Quote:
It really is kind of tiresome, but do you see any contradiction in crowing about how we are the most powerful nation on earth in one breath, and deriding the UN as being powerless in the next? Do you think we would be ok with the UN having the kind of power to solve these conflicts without us? Don't you think our government would see that as a threat to our dominance?


No I see no contradiction most especially because liberals are so fond of holding up the U.N. as the model of the way business should be conducted and insisting that the U.S. consult with and abide by the wishes of the U.N. It's almost like the U.S. is supposed to have no conviction or voice at all apart from the U.N. Then when the U.N. refuses to enforce their own resolutions and refuses to assist us in doing so, suddenly WE become the bad guys. Well I simply don't see it that way. I do not see that the U.S. owes any allegience to an organization that holds us in contempt and regularly adopts resolutions that put us at a disadvantage.

I see a huge contradiction when it is said in criticism that we should have more troops from all these other countries helping out in Iraq and it's the administration's fault that we don't, then in the same breath saying the U.N. can't be expected to really do anything.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:15 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
And that I think it's kind of shitty to say, "let the UN prevent genocides and humanitarian crises without us, we've got lots of work to do to bring democracy to the free world. Da da daaaaaaaa!"
Free, I would agree; that is shitty... But if they wish to be relevant, shouldn't they be leading the way?... at least asking for assistance? At least stop avoiding calling genocide, genocide? Would it hurt to have some standard for membership, before slamming us for not bending? Come on... this much we should be able to agree on. Confused
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:15 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Slow down, FreeDuck. The UN could start by ceasing the practice of avoiding the term genocide... which is a call to action. Which Security Counsel member do you think would object if the Great Debate Society called for interference in Sudan? By avoiding the use of the term genocide, they're showing they haven't even really thought about it. They aren't that powerless. Clearly, they're not even trying. McG had it right.


I'm just going to say that I agree with Frank.

And that I think it's kind of shitty to say, "let the UN prevent genocides and humanitarian crises without us, we've got lots of work to do to bring democracy to the free world. Da da daaaaaaaa!"


Freeduck, this all started because of a hypothetical question. No one in the US would even think of not helping the UN end genocide. The question was "What are the rest of the countries of the UN doing about it?" We are kind of tied up at the moment with Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Taiwan plus all the internal problems.

The situation in the Sudan would be a great place for Germany and France and the rest of the EU to step up and show that they are more than politicians playing on the world stage. Put their money where their mouth is so to speak.

Honestly, to get in an arguement over whether or not the US will aid the UN in ending genocide is just a bit ridiculous, don't you think?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:19 pm
I don't know, McG. You said our hands were full, so how are we going to help the UN end genocide?

But I'm going to butt out now. I've already heard the arguments for, against, and everything else the UN. And again, I agree with what Frank said.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:31 pm
That's right. Our hands are full at the moment, but fortunatly, we are not the only country in the UN. Syria is on the Security council, maybe they should send some troops and weapons to the Sudan and try to help ease the suffering. Libya chairs the Human Rights committee and they are right next door. Perhaps they could lend a hand. France has what, 200 troops there? Perhaps they could fly a jet or two over and help. What is Rumania doing these days? Canada? Surely Canada wants to help those poor Sudanese people, don't they?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:37 pm
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=43776&SelectRegion=East_Africa&SelectCountry=SUDAN

...for a little perspective

Quote:
ADDIS ABABA, 21 Oct 2004 (IRIN) - The African Union (AU) agreed on Wednesday to boost the number of peacekeepers in Sudan's troubled Darfur region and to send in a civilian police force, Said Djinnit, head of the AU's Peace and Security Council, told reporters in the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa.

The deployment of the armed force, which would number 3,320, was expected in a matter of weeks, he said. The one-year mission, he added, would be made up of 2,241 troops, of whom 450 would be military observers and 815 civilian police. There would also be 164 support staff.

"Both the size and mandate of the mission have been strengthened to be able to better assist the parties honour their commitment and work together with renewed commitment and determination to achieve lasting peace in Darfur," Djinnit said. "We are talking about weeks to have the enhancement of people on the ground."

The AU appealed to its member states to provide "financial and logistical" support as well as troops and police for deployment in Darfur.

"The size of the mission is appropriate, given the level of where we are in the peace process, given the conditions in which we are operating, and given the mandate and task of the mission," Djinnit added.

The announcement by the AU came on the eve of the planned resumption of peace talks on Darfur in the Nigerian capital, Abuja. Djinnit added that the Peace and Security Council had urged the warring factions at the peace talks to show "commitment and spirit of compromise" to end suffering.

The expanded force would be funded to the tune of US $220 million, mainly by the European Union peace fund and the United States. Currently some 300 Rwandan and Nigerian troops are in Darfur to protect 80 observers already on the ground.

...


I couldn't find anything more recent in my quick search. But it seems that other countries are stepping up.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 03:46 pm
Too little, too late. That's a black eye on us all... but especially a group that calls itself the United Nations. Sad
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 04:07 pm
nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Lash wrote:
It is sad to see someone devolve completely.

At least he evolved in the first place. Go back under your bridge, Lash.

Hmmm. It seems you are unaware that issuing a personal insult with my name attached is against the TOS. Or maybe you think they don't apply to you.

Yeah ... issuing a personal insult without a name attached is so much more - brave. Fair. Decent. Or a good way to duck the TOS, in any case. Rolling Eyes

Yeah. You become the object of a few of them, and you'd add it to your repertiore, too. Anyhoo, I was tutored by Craven.
And, I never saw you Rolling Eyes at people who do this as an art form, if you agreed with their politics. Hypocracy: Rolling Eyes



edited due to mangled repertiore.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 04:13 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The journalists who become op-ed columnists have to first prove themselves in the trenches as reporters. Therefore, the op-ed pieces are as credible and often better researched than is the average 'straight' news story;

First off, the "therefore" suggests some kind of logical deduction, but there is none.

Eg: just that before I became an A2K poster, I "proved myself in the academic trenches", say, with a thesis on East-European minorities, doesn't mean that therefore, my A2K posts on Eastern Europe "are as credible and often better researched" than the chapters of a thesis. Not at all. When writing an opinion piece, you can go by different rules - more relaxed rules when it comes to researching your every assertion - and thus people do. And so it needs be, for how otherwise could you be able to unfold a vision, which is what your opinion piece is supposed to be about, and which by definition a speculative thing?

Thats the tricky bit. Op-ed pieces are pieces of opinion. When explicitly stating that what you're expressing is merely your opinion, your take on the situation, rather than as close (if not always complete) a reflection of actual facts as journalistically possible, you grant yourself a leeway that a regular story's journalist has not got. Fine; thats what op-ed pages are for. Facts are just facts, after all, and when you want to express what you think is the truth, you're talking about the personal way in which you look at those facts, make sense of them and construct an overall view on the situation out of them. To be able to do so, you need that extra leeway: the freedom to speculate, to interpret, to associate and assert. But the reader needs to realise that that's what's going on in op-eds, never mind columns. Spin. Just like our A2K posts represent spin - our own private spin on a situation.

Fine - but that means we're talking of a different calibre of "evidence". In an op-ed, let alone a column, you can - as did the author of an article JW pointed me to the other day - get away with stating, "A recent article I read says the real Muslim population in France may be between 8 and 9 million", and "One forecast I read suggests that France may be half Muslim by 2050", and base the rest of your argument on that. Never mind that you could find a forecast saying pretty much anything on the topic. You pick and choose, based on what illustrates or bolsters your train of thought, specifying a source only when you choose to - again, the prerogative of the opinion piece writer. Now you say that nowadays "news stories are almost as much opinion and speculation as are the op-ed pieces", but a news story writer would not get away with the example I just gave. (Not in the media I read, anyway).

Where the trouble comes in here is where, then, individuals like certain A2K posters seem to illustrate and "prove" their entire argument again purely through references to those columnists, opinion pieces, talk radio interviews, blogs - which themselves were already a processed take on the situation. We're very much on to the meta-level here. No longer is a personal opinion construed from one's personal interpretation of the factual news stories, of the raw material; the raw material is hardly even gotten round to anymore. Hell, the raw material is itself declared irrelevant or discredited: who can trust the MSM anyway? Those reports from the ground ... you gotta take them with a grain of salt, because don't you know, all those reporters are liberals, anyway!

And so, in full distrust of any NYT, WaPo or "alphabet network" news story, the conservative poster bypasses the stories from the ground altogether and instead retreats to Townhall.com, to the National Review Online, to any number of opinion pieces and already processed takes on the situation and takes those as the "raw material", to then base their own opinionated take on again. We're into serious virtual reality territory by now, one that explains ever so often coming across the same pre-rehearsed spins and takes all across the Net, simultaneously ... an echo chamber of unprecedented proportions.

It's kind of ironic, really. Conservatives claim the MSM journalists offer (liberal) opinion instead of fact. So instead, they've erected a parallel news space that, barring Fox News, mostly doesn't even try to collect its own first-hand info from around the world - but skips straight to the opinionating! From talk radio to columns to blogs, they seem to focus passionately and near-exclusively on applying conservative interpretation, selection and opinion on those dreaded CNN or BBC news items. It's not an alternate news space at all - it's an opinion factory!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 04:18 pm
Lash wrote:
And, I never saw you Rolling Eyes at people who do this as an art form, if you agreed with their politics. Hypocracy: Rolling Eyes

You can say a lot about me, but not that I don't criticize "fellow" liberals here.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 04:27 pm
Possibly why it wasn't said.
0 Replies
 
 

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