Iraq through Iraqis' eyes

*Baleted*

Frank, it's no secret that you hate Bush and our actions in Iraq. How about saying something else for a change. You seem like a smart guy and I can't believe that you can't see my point. Are you relly so tied up in your hatred of the current administration that you can't see what I am saying?

Everytime you utter "vietnam" you prove your lack of understanding of the current conflict. It disheartens me.

Personally, I think that somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Yes, there are pockets of resistence, where people are living frightened, miserable, lives. There are also parts of the country where people are getting their lives together, and enjoying freedom from Saddam's tyranny.

The problem is, Iraq is a work in progress, and the reconstruction is not without its problems. I think that is unfortunate that some people tend to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

The scenario over there is not perfect, by a long shot, but we are making progress.

The thing is, I don't think we ARE making progress. I think things are a lot worse today in Iraq than they were a year ago.

There are some things that could have been done to help the situation, and we didn't do them. Now we are paying the price, and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Many of us have no faith that the same people who have screwed up the occupation (and you shouldn't kid yourself; that's what it is) will be able to fix it. None whatsoever, and why should we? They have shown a real lack of ability to properly administer our own country, let alone someone elses'....

Cycloptichorn

No...Frank Apisa never wrote that. I suspect you got that quote from the same place you get some of the rosy scenarios you offer.





Well, actually, lately I've been mentioning that I do not respect Bush enough to hate him...but I get where you are coming from.





I regret our actions in Iraq...and I suspect that one day you will see it for the disaster it is. But only time will tell on that...and I'll leave it be.




I can easily see what you are saying...I just disagree with it.

COMPLETELY!

You wouldn't want me to lie, would ya?





Don't let it dishearten you...you will one day find that my assessment is right on the nose.

Here is what Robert McNamara had to say were the major causes for what he termed "the disaster in Vietnam."




We misjudged then -- and we have since -- the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries . . . and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.

We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience. . . . We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.

Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

We failed then -- and have since -- to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine. . . . We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement . . . before we initiated the action.

After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course . . . we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.

We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.

We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action . . . should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.

We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions. . . . At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues.




Put a check mark next to the ones that seem appropriate to this war...and you will see why I make the comparison I make.

This one is the most appropriate:

We failed then -- and have since -- to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine. . . . We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

That is what is important in this war, not defeating insurgents... we've lost track of the goal here.

Hell, we never HAD the right goal in mind...

Cycloptichorn

It's our desire to NOT use our superior fire-power that leads us into this discussion. Were it not for the US desire to keep casualties on both sides to a minimum and to keep civilians safe, there would be no insurgency and we would not be having this discussion.

<tears hair out>

If we DID use our superior firepower on civilians, we would be no better than the people we kicked out!

Therefore, to maintain legitimacy for our invasion, we cannot. It's not even an option.

As for your quote, I'd disagree with several points:



The brevity to date. It's not like we are going to leave the country any time soon, or fighting is going to die down any time soon.



Vietnam was much lighter on casualties during the first few years as well....



Incorrect. It wasn't the military might of the NV that beat us in Vietnam, it was the guerrilla war they fought and won. Same thing in Iraq, even though there are differences, the same tactics are being used and it's creating the same problems that it used to. Except this time, there are television cameras everywhere, so we can't just indiscriminately kill civilians like we used to.



The most incorrect part. In Iraq, the main battlefield victories haven't even been fought yet...

Cycloptichorn

Well, I'm done discussing it with ya. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Cool.

Cycloptichorn

American spirit takes root in Iraq

Kathleen Parker (archive)

December 15, 2004

'Tis the season, and Americans deserve some holiday cheer. Herewith some of the good things happening in Iraq, beginning with Omar and Mohammed.

Regular travelers of the blogosphere, that rare and wonderful new universe on where bloggers post news, commentary and other ruminations on the Web, may be familiar with the names Omar and Mohammed.

They, too, are bloggers. In Iraq with brother Ali, they created a blog called Iraq The Model, through which they've kept the blogosphere abreast of events from their native, on-the-ground perspective.

Last week, Omar, 24, and Mohammed, 35, both dentists, came to the United States to meet their American blogging counterparts and to shake hands with someone they hold in high esteem - President George W. Bush. They wanted to thank him.

The two Iraqi brothers, who are Sunni, came to the United States under the sponsorship of Spirit of America (SOP), a nonprofit organization founded by technology entrepreneur Jim Hake that helps Americans serving abroad improve the lives of others.

SOP, for example, supported the U.S. Marines and others in Afghanistan and Iraq by raising funds for needed supplies, prompting the Wall Street Journal to write: "Jim Hake and the Marines are a coalition of the can-do."

Several bloggers have posted reports of last week's historic human intersection that began in cyberspace. Jeff Jarvis of BuzzMachine wrote:

They have tremendous courage doing what they are doing: They grab onto free speech like men dying of thirst who finally come upon the oasis. They use their free speech with a gusto we should all admire and aspire to. They use it improve their nation and their future.

Omar told a gathering that he and his brothers are trying to "bridge the gap between Iraq and the world," according to Jarvis' report.

"Iraqis are grateful for what America did. Iraqis are grateful for the liberation of Iraq. . They feel like they are not alone in their struggle." Mohammed said that his countrymen "had lived in the dark for 35 years," and he and his brothers want to "show the world a different story that they cannot see in the media."

"I am free and I am enjoying my freedom," he said.

Freedom is something Americans take for granted, but it's a new concept for Iraqis, a majority of whom have known life only under a despot. Their entire experience, from birth until present day, was dictated, organized, provided or withheld from above.

Think welfare state in the extreme. Thus, when coalition forces ousted Saddam, a void replaced him. How now to conduct life? Iraqis are learning freedom - and the personal responsibilities inherent therein - one day at a time. Men may yearn to be free, as Bush often puts it, but a populace accustomed to a nanny state, particularly one so malevolent, needs time to mature before embracing full autonomy.

Staff Sgt. Dan Lostotter, an Army intelligence analyst in Baghdad, explained in an e-mail that many Iraqis expected coalition forces to do everything for them. Such had been their experience, after all.

Instead, says Lostotter, "We hand the problem back and explain how they can solve it themselves. We are winning this 'clash of cultures,' but in a SASO (Stability and Support Operations) environment, it is sometimes hard to measure."

Lostotter sent me the first five issues of a relatively new public-affairs publication, "Eye on Iraq," that is distributed to the media and to military personnel in Iraq. These are strictly "good news" items of the "plane lands safely" variety. Non-news, in other words, if you're an American reporter.

The issue dated Nov. 27-Dec. 3, for example, features summaries and photos of: Iraqi National Guard soldiers practicing new search-and-seizure techniques, students at a secondary girl's school with new school bags filled with supplies, and an Iraqi municipal council meeting where members were briefed on various projects.

For most reporters, these are the sort of photo-ops - the news equivalent of ribbon-cuttings - that cause spontaneous eye rolling. The U.S. media don't cover ribbon cuttings, which are routine and matter only to those commemorating the moment.

To the Omars, Mohammeds and Alis of the world, however, ribbon-cuttings and grand openings and new book bags and town meetings are of a different species. They're the first stirrings of a newly birthed nation imbued with the soul of democracy.

In an Iraq of mass graves, suicide bombings and terrorists, that's big news.

Source

Well let's see. We have Mark Jacoby's piece and the documentary itself testifying to McG's take on this.

In addition, I have a plethora of news clippings, letters, face to face conversations with military types who have been over there, testimony of our congressional representatives who have been over there, as well as a young Iraqi woman who spoke to a church group here recently all testifying to McG's take on this.

There are lots of uglies for sure. I can't imagine there has ever been a war conducted that did not include uglies.

But those of you who think this article and the documentary it discusses are pure bogus, could you please provide your rationale for why you believe that it is other than that you seem to want it to be?

McG sees everything through rose colored glasses. He doesn't see any of the daily mayhem that kills our soldiers, and we kill their innocent people. Anybody want to buy a cheap humvy?

It is so typical. No one here thinks everything is rosy in Iraq. No one here tries to deny there are some daily horrors still going on there.

The Conservatives can see both sides of this war.

The liberals cannot bear to see any mention of good things that are happening in Iraq. One sided and closed minded.

We are NOT closed-minded. What we do see is how much it is costing us to keep your conservatives happy to be in Iraq. We see some good things happening in Iraq, but it does not balance against all the bad things happening. The insurgency is getting worse every month. More of our soldiers are getting killed, and we are spending billions in Iraq while our own citizens go without much needed improvements in our own country. We are closing schools while we build schools in Iraq. I don't know about you, but I find it quite upsetting to see our children in this country see more schools closed for lack of funds. Our children are the hope of this country's future. Without good education, this country will not compete in this world economy. Yeah, I see some good things happening in Iraq, but how much do we sacrifice for Bush's goal to bring democracy to the world?

That tells me all I need to know about how objective and open-minded you are, Lash. Please note that I do not generalize to say you represent all conservatives. (Thank God that you do not.)

McG didn't ask about balance. He simply shared an article about a video made by Iraqis.

For this, he gets nothing but grief. As I said--no one can say anything positive about Iraq without a blizzard of insults.

And, CI, no one is happy about being in Iraq.

As for the accusation that we do not wish to see mention of "good things" that are happening in Iraq...

It is not that I am incapable of seeing "good things." It is that I total up what it has cost in blood and limbs and lives for these "good things" to happen and it makes me ill.

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.