19
   

The Liberal obsession with Nazis. It's not good for you.

 
 
revelette1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 10:25 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’

George Santayana


Quote:
Consider what Mark Twain famously said on the matter: "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."


Big Think
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 10:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I do hope that it never will be forgotten.
But since the Right gets more and more support ... Who knows?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 10:49 am
I believe in Free Speech. In France (and other countries) the government can censor speech, on any topic, based on popular passions. France has not only censored political groups, and minority political opinions... they have even passed a law censoring speech advocating the use of drugs.

The issue is whether a democratic government can have the ability to decide which opinions are acceptable or which opinions are penalized. As France shows, when a government who is concerned about reelection is the judge, the results aren't often fair. Insults on Muslim figures are permitted, insults on Catholic figures... not so much. And yes, the French government deliberately stifles any questions about the treatment of ethnic minorities in French society.

I don't think Germany is as bad as France is. In my opinion, giving the government any ability to act as referee in public debate is dangerous and limits freedom. I support limited restrictions on immediate calls to violence and direct threats. I think the US has this line mostly right.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:07 am
@maxdancona,
Just because you saw it on FAUX News doesn't make it true, Max.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:12 am
@maxdancona,
Just out of curiosity: to which law are you referring that censors the use of drugs? I suppose, many European countries, like e.g. the UK and Germany "censor" the use of drugs even more.
I'd never thought this to be a matter of free speech, but it certainly is.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I do hope that it never will be forgotten.
But since the Right gets more and more support ... Who knows?


There's a difference between remembering it and obsessing about it.

Does Germany have such little faith in its citizens that it believes it has to censor pro-Nazi speech or else the 4th Reich will rise?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,


My understanding is that France censors the promotion of the use of drugs. This is a restriction on talking about drugs, not on using drugs.
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:28 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't know.
But I don't thknk this to be the reason - promoting slavery is censored here, too, as is promoting any other crime.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:38 am
@maxdancona,
My understanding is different - because our lawsl regaording public health are similar (the French and the German public health system are similar, at least more than yours to ours)
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:40 am
@Walter Hinteler,
There is an old article of the Code de la santé publique prohibiting positive representation of drug use. It's not applied any more. To my knowledge there's been very few cases of prosecution.

Article L. 3421-4

1. La provocation au délit prévu par l’article L. 3421-1 ou à l’une des infractions prévues par les articles 222-34 à 222-39 du code pénal, alors même que cette provocation n’a pas été suivie d’effet, ou le fait de présenter ces infractions sous un jour favorable est puni de cinq ans d’emprisonnement et de 75000 euro d'amende.

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:46 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Does Germany have such little faith in its citizens that it believes it has to censor pro-Nazi speech or else the 4th Reich will rise?

German citizens don't have faith in German citizens. They know better than that.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 04:57 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
But I don't thknk this to be the reason - promoting slavery is censored here, too, as is promoting any other crime.


What does "promoting a crime" mean? Isn't it dangerous to give a government this power?

Not that long ago same-sex marriage was illegal in Germany. Think about that.


0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 05:16 pm
@Olivier5,
A very French perspective.
Olivier5
 
  5  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 01:07 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
A universal perspective, rather. If we had faith in our fellow citizens to always do the right thing, there would be no need for laws.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 02:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
A very French perspective.
What does this perspective make so French?


The legal German basis is that signs are forbidden for any organisation whose activity is not in accordance with the basic law or which are fighting it.
Laws regulating the freedom of assembly were thought not be strict enough, so these regulations became part of the criminal code from the 1950's onwards - becoming stricter the more old former Nazis weren't involved because of their age and/or death.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 07:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It was a joke. I don't think there is a long history of French trust in the boche.
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 09:10 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
The French don't trust themselves either: the same or similar laws prohibiting nazi apology exist in France. We know all too well that our own 'deep state' aparatus was very happy to process the orders from the gestapo, back then...

That's also one of the reasons why the French state is prohibited from gathering data and statistics about people's ethnicity (something Max misunderstood as an attempt to hide institutional racism): because of the yellow star, because of the police files of Jewish citizens used to send them to their death during WW2.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 09:31 am
@Olivier5,
The American Founders didn't trust early Americans either. James Madison in particular, but he was also a huge proponent of unrestricted speech. It's a fine line to walk.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 09:35 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I don't think there is a long history of French trust in the boche.
Since Julius Caesar's time we have a mixed relation
revelette1
 
  4  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 10:16 am
@Olivier5,
True

I don't understand this need for some posters to tear down other countries. A lot posters do it to the US, but then US posters do it to about every other country too.

 

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