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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:21 pm
Ah McT, you are a lover of injecting the poisonous comment, aren't you? Understandable, as you seem to have little else to contribute once you've run out of cut and paste jobs.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:31 pm
Setanta wrote:
Ah McT, you are a lover of injecting the poisonous comment, aren't you? Understandable, as you seem to have little else to contribute once you've run out of cut and paste jobs.


...and the blind shall follow the deaf...

I knew it wouldn't be long before one of you came along to defend this despicable comment. How nice it would be for one of you leading lefties to actually make a non-venomous comment about something. Or better yet, ignore it if you have nothing to add.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:37 pm
I haven't defended anything . . . and when you write: " . . . ignore it if you have nothing to add," i suggest that you read that aloud, facing the mirror.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:39 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Ah McT, you are a lover of injecting the poisonous comment, aren't you? Understandable, as you seem to have little else to contribute once you've run out of cut and paste jobs.


...and the blind shall follow the deaf...

I knew it wouldn't be long before one of you came along to defend this despicable comment. How nice it would be for one of you leading lefties to actually make a non-venomous comment about something. Or better yet, ignore it if you have nothing to add.


I think you need a bit of rest, McG........where's your sense of humor? Come on.

And besides, if the shoe fits....
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:45 pm
Lola, you ignorant slut . . .
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:47 pm
Setanta wrote:
Lola, you ignorant slut . . .


Huh. I was thinking the same thing.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:56 pm
However, when i indulged that in a humorous mood, there was no bile choking me . . .
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 11:22 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Get over yourself DD.

Tremble with fear, not desire

Is that an instruction or an explanation?

If the former, then rest assured that you're no more terrifying than a barking chihuahua. In fact, have you considered one of those for your avatar? I would think it quite apropos.

If the latter, you're even more humor-challenged than I first thought.


I think my current avatar sums up my personae just fine: supercilious, but certainly not terrifying.

I guess that makes me more humor-challenged than you first thought.

You don't know how much it hurts me that you hold me in such poor regard DD.

Don't worry about me though, somehow I'll get by.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 05:45 am
Okay everybody, take a deep breath and regroup here. Without benefit of tone of voice and body language, what is intended as humor may not be at all obvious to another, and even in real life it is often constructive to clarify what another means before drawing a conclusion.

Even with the intermittant vitriolic exchanges, this has been a good thread for at least some, and let's don't get it locked in a sniping contest.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:02 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay everybody, take a deep breath and regroup here. Without benefit of tone of voice and body language, what is intended as humor may not be at all obvious to another, and even in real life it is often constructive to clarify what another means before drawing a conclusion.

Even with the intermittant vitriolic exchanges, this has been a good thread for at least some, and let's don't get it locked in a sniping contest.


Good advice, Foxfyre. Even though I've never denied being an ignorant slut.......well, I'm not entirely ignorant. Laughing (smiley indicates joking)

Now, Foxfyre, you asked for some information about what Democrats think should be done. What's our plan? Well, I think Krugman has it right here. The wealthy should give back to the government the money they got in the form of a tax cut and leave Social Security alone. Thank you for your attention.

The piece below is opinion, before anyone points that out. But you asked for opinion. Here's Krugman's and I agree.

Krugman

Quote:
May 9, 2005
The Final Insult
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Hell hath no fury like a scammer foiled. The card shark caught marking the deck, the auto dealer caught resetting a used car's odometer, is rarely contrite. On the contrary, they're usually angry, and they lash out at their intended marks, crying hypocrisy.

And so it is with those who would privatize Social Security. They didn't get away with scare tactics, or claims to offer something for nothing. Now they're accusing their opponents of coddling the rich and not caring about the poor.

Well, why not? It's no more outrageous than other arguments they've tried. Remember the claim that Social Security is bad for black people?

Before I take on this final insult to our intelligence, let me deal with a fundamental misconception: the idea that President Bush's plan would somehow protect future Social Security benefits.

If the plan really would do that, it would be worth discussing. It's possible - not certain, but possible - that 40 or 50 years from now Social Security won't have enough money coming in to pay full benefits. (If the economy grows as fast over the next 50 years as it did over the past half-century, Social Security will do just fine.) So there's a case for making small sacrifices now to avoid bigger sacrifices later.

But Mr. Bush isn't calling for small sacrifices now. Instead, he's calling for zero sacrifice now, but big benefit cuts decades from now - which is exactly what he says will happen if we do nothing. Let me repeat that: to avert the danger of future cuts in benefits, Mr. Bush wants us to commit now to, um, future cuts in benefits.

This accomplishes nothing, except, possibly, to ensure that benefit cuts take place even if they aren't necessary.

Now, about the image of Mr. Bush as friend to the poor: keep your eye on the changing definitions of "middle income" and "wealthy."

In last fall's debates, Mr. Bush asserted that "most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans." Since most of the cuts went to the top 10 percent of the population and more than a third went to people making more than $200,000 a year, Mr. Bush's definition of middle income apparently reaches pretty high.

But defenders of Mr. Bush's Social Security plan now portray benefit cuts for anyone making more than $20,000 a year, cuts that will have their biggest percentage impact on the retirement income of people making about $60,000 a year, as cuts for the wealthy.

These are people who denounced you as a class warrior if you wanted to tax Paris Hilton's inheritance. Now they say that they're brave populists, because they want to cut the income of retired office managers.

Let's consider the Bush tax cuts and the Bush benefit cuts as a package. Who gains? Who loses?

Suppose you're a full-time Wal-Mart employee, earning $17,000 a year. You probably didn't get any tax cut. But Mr. Bush says, generously, that he won't cut your Social Security benefits.

Suppose you're earning $60,000 a year. On average, Mr. Bush cut taxes for workers like you by about $1,000 per year. But by 2045 the Bush Social Security plan would cut benefits for workers like you by about $6,500 per year. Not a very good deal.

Suppose, finally, that you're making $1 million a year. You received a tax cut worth about $50,000 per year. By 2045 the Bush plan would reduce benefits for people like you by about $9,400 per year. We have a winner!

I'm not being unfair. In fact, I've weighted the scales heavily in Mr. Bush's favor, because the tax cuts will cost much more than the benefit cuts would save. Repealing Mr. Bush's tax cuts would yield enough revenue to call off his proposed benefit cuts, and still leave $8 trillion in change.

The point is that the privatizers consider four years of policies that relentlessly favored the wealthy a fait accompli, not subject to reconsideration. Now that tax cuts have busted the budget, they want us to accept large cuts in Social Security benefits as inevitable. But they demand that we praise Mr. Bush's sense of social justice, because he proposes bigger benefit cuts for the middle class than for the poor.

Sorry, but no. Mr. Bush likes to play dress-up, but his Robin Hood costume just doesn't fit.

E-mail: [email protected]
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:08 am
heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

" . . . but his Robin Hood costume just doesn't fit."

Robin Hood: Men in Tights just leapt into my mind . . .

The Shrub in green tights with a little pointy hat on his little pointy head . . .

God, that image cracks me up . . .
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:22 am
I agree, Set........I thought it was a particularly apt image to invoke too. Krugman was feeling good when he wrote that. Very funny.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 09:36 am
Lola wrote:
Now, Foxfyre, you asked for some information about what Democrats think should be done. What's our plan? Well, I think Krugman has it right here. The wealthy should give back to the government the money they got in the form of a tax cut and leave Social Security alone. Thank you for your attention.
To be a greedy twit or an envious snit; that is the question.
Whether it be nobler in the mind to seek more for oneself or to seek less for those with more is the outrageous dilemma.
Is it more helpful to those needing help to voluntarily join with those who want and do help the needy, or to compel others to help the needy by a majority vote that sometimes causes the needy to be helped; that is what continually puzzles the will.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 09:43 am
Well, ican, you can't say my motivation is envy as you so often project onto others. I'm one of those whose tax cut was in the five figure range. And it still hurt me more (long term) to have it than not.

Voluntary controls are not controls at all. You don't address this point.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 10:11 am
Lola wrote:
Well, ican, you can't say my motivation is envy as you so often project onto others. I'm one of those whose tax cut was in the five figure range. And it still hurt me more (long term) to have it than not.

Voluntary controls are not controls at all. You don't address this point.

I was not discussing "voluntary contols" versus involuntary contols. I was citing the diversity of thinking between voluntary charity and philanthropy and involuntary charity and philanthropy.

Specifically, I advocate that courses in political philosophy and economic philosophy critically and objectively examine the relative benefits to the evolution of the human race of a dominate greed motive versus a dominate envy motive.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 10:16 am
How many of us who were given $50,000 or more in the form of a tax cut gave that amount to charity or to those who will need help with their retirement?

If people don't have what they need and can't get it by a lifetime of hard work they will become a problem for everyone, not just themselves. And it won't be about greed, it will be about need.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 10:20 am
Sorry, I won't, for one, sit around and wait on the Uber-rich to start handing out voluntary charity.

You think that everyone is envious of the rich; they aren't. I'm not envious of the rich. I think they are holding our society back through their greed, is all...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 11:19 am
So everybody, let's put this into a more concrete framework:

If Citizen A finished highschool and is gainfully employed making $30,000/year but is having trouble obtaining healthcare or saving for retirement;

If Citizen B worked his/her way through college, is paying off student loans, and is gainfully employed making $75,000/year - s/he has a good health care plan and saves 10% or more of his/her income in IRAs and 401ks;

If Citizen C inherited Daddy's business and is now a corporate executive earning $250,000/year. His health care and substantial retirement is paid for by the corporation.

And Citizen D dropped out of highschool, has never been gainfully employed for long, has no marketable experience or skills, has no savings of any kind, and is short on health insurance, opportunity, and cash. . . .

Who is responsible to take care of Citizen D?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 11:42 am
Quote:
And Citizen D dropped out of highschool, has never been gainfully employed for long, has no marketable experience or skills, has no savings of any kind, and is short on health insurance, opportunity, and cash. . . .

Who is responsible to take care of Citizen D?


The unfortunate fact of the matter is, we are all responsible for taking care of every citizen of our society.

Now, we can try to change the way we raise/educate people in order to reduce the number of Citizen D's as much as possible, but what's the alternative? Many 'Citizen D's' possess learning disabilities, low IQ, mental disorder, ADD(though I think this is mostly made up in order to sell drugs) and they just aren't going to become citizen A, let alone citizen b or c. Now, we can say 'let them starve, it's not our problem' but as we all know, these people have kids (lots of kids) and something will have to be done for them. It quickly becomes evident that we can't just abandon the citizen to fate without creating more problems for society than if we just pitched in to help each other out.

Which is what SS does, btw.

Just a few quick thoughts, don't take this as my gospel on the subject plz

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 12:17 pm
But when it comes to taxation, how much, if anything, should Citizen A, B, and C contribute to avoid a problem like Citizen D?
0 Replies
 
 

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