Diversity of Everything but Thought

And Cyclop, I would say that the article you posted in no way disputes in any substantive way the data that has been posted and/or referenced from both liberal and conservative sources. We have plenty of testimony from those who work in the field of higher education backing up the data with their own observations and experience; so far nobody has produced any data indicating the data is wrong; nor has any convincing rationale been presented showing that the disparity is not a problem when a complete and balanced education experience is the goal.

I was in no way shooting the messenger, but only citing the political persuaion of the writer who was offering no credentials of his own, no data shedding any new light, but was purely offering his opinion which is in that of the left who refuse to see a problem and, instead, attack the other side as being unreasonable about it.

For that matter, that is all any of the leftwingers have done in this discussion. You all like it the way it is; you do not accept as valid any information presented by the other side, and therefore there is no problem.

And you wonder why people like Horowitz and others are pushing legislation to remedy a problem that the left is not even attempting to refute by reason and logic. So who is being hypocritical? Not our side.

Check out my sig.

"Balance" is not a goal and should not be a goal if it is "balancing" evidence. The world is round. Educational resources should not be wasted on teaching that it is flat in the name of "balance."

The article points out that the methods used in the surveys is flawed.

Sample: Agree or disagree that some professors use their positions to push a political agenda some of the time?

I mean, what idiot wouldn't agree to that? The question is essentially meaningless.

No, you're side is being just plain stupid and revisionistic. If religious neocons had their way, the earth would be flat again. I totally agree with sozobe in that regard, and if neocon zealots go their way, they wouldn't stop there.

With idiots like Tom DeLay, Senator Cornyn, and these other rightwing nutjobs, who needs moderate and sensible Republicans anymore?



Then put up or shut up, Foxfyre. Prove to us how awfully wrong these sites are, how they are lying through their teeth, do it with facts, and then offer us the neocon equivalent (which I would imagine to be impossible to do...)

It is meaningless if only the left agenda is pushed. Just as those of the left almost never post a conservative point of view as reasonable, there is merit in a conservative point of view. If you'll notice, the more reasonable members, both those who tilt left and those who tilt right, will give credit to the other side where credit is due. I don't know if I rate as reasonable when compared to some, but I have posted numerous articles from quite liberal writers from time time when I felt their thesis had merit.

That's all the conservatives are asking: that our kids will hear both sides and be encouraged to think and make up their own minds. We don't want to send our kids to college to be indoctrinated. We want them to be educated. Those who can only see one side of any issue as valid and consistently see the other side as evil are definitely indoctrinated, not educated.

The problem is that you are again stating as fact something which you do not have impartial, objective evidence for. What evidence do you have for indoctrination?

Not everything has two sides. The evidence often points to one thing -- the roundness of the earth or the soundness of evolution. Education is about teaching people how to think and letting them come to their own conclusions, yes -- but it is NOT about presenting that which is false as true or even possibly true in the name of balance.

Well, let's deconstruct the argument so we can show you quite obviously where the flaw is.

Proposition: That there exists a bias towards Conservative thought in higher education and that this negatively affects the learning experience of the students.

Evidence: Anecdotal reports, studies done showing the probable inclination of professors in certain fields, and opinion writing by conservative pundits.

Here's the problem, in steps:

Step 1: To show that there are more Liberals than Conservative professors in certain studies on campuses.

This step has been somewhat accomplished, though the criticism in my article of the flawed methodology of the surveys done is quite accurate. But we'll give ya this one and say that yes, there are more Liberal profs.

Step 2: To show that this bias negatively affects students and somehow 'brainwashes' them.

You have not accomplished this step in the slightest, as besides anecdotal evidence, you have provided nothing that shows that students have in any way been 'brainwashed' by their professors, despite their Liberal slant. Instead you have posted a preponderance of 'stories' by 'anonymous' conservative students which purport to show this, but in fact only show the opinion of the writer and not any scientific evidence whatsoever.

You really need to see where your logic breaks down here before you accuse me of 'not even attempting to refute by reason and logic.' Your line here:

'so far nobody has produced any data indicating the data is wrong; nor has any convincing rationale been presented showing that the disparity is not a problem when a complete and balanced education experience is the goal.'

Shows just how little you understand of logic. Being that it is you who is putting forth evidence of a rather crazy idea, it is you who is responsible for providing clear and convincing evidence that:

Not only are there many more Liberal Profs, but that the fact that there ARE more Liberal Profs is definatively detrimental to the learning experience of the average student.



To recap; in a debate, the 'Pro' position has the burden of proof, Fox. The 'neg' position has no responsibility to provide an argument whatsoever; merely to disprove the argument of the 'Pro' position, which myself and others have done handily by pointing out that there is no link whatsoever that anyone has presented which shows in any way that the average student has suffered academic harm from the preponderance of Liberal professors on campuses.

Until you can do so, your proposition fails due to a lack of substantial evidence. Your claim that 'noone has supplied any counter-evidence' is immaterial; it is neither our position nor responsibility to do so.

Cycloptichorn

Jesus, Fox, just turn on Faux news, Rush, Sean, Ann, and all those other blowhard idiots, and you'll hear a definitive rightwing agenda being pushed quite efficiently.

You are now labeling most schools as centers of "indoctrination," instead of institutions of higher learning. Boy, that's certainly damned convenient, and perhaps the reasons behind that narrominded interpretation explain why there are more liberals in colleges than conservatives.

How about we level the playing field and allow more liberals with differing views and criticisms of the war on Iraq to get jobs at the C.I.A. or F.B.I? Oh, wait. That's impossible. Any reason to be concerned regarding intelligence failure is generally followed up with employee termination. And I thought that kind of objective perspective was crucial in forming good and accurate intelligence? I guess that only further explains why there are more liberals in Universities these days. I couldn't IMAGINE a liberal agent basing MOST if not ALL their reasons for invading a non-threatening country from the intelligence of a drunken, paranoid informant we all now fondly know of as "Curveball..."

But hey, to be fair, how WOULD the higher educational playing field be leveled with many more "conservatives" in proffesorial positions? What would they teach that the other more "liberal" professors aren't teaching?

You seem to know...

Cyclop writes


But until you do, I shall continue to believe that my point of view is the correct one as all the evidence presented, including almost all the posts by the liberals on this thread, supports the thesis.

Edit to add the quoted post referenced

... you can easily turn them off, also.

Note to Dookie: to the best of my knowledge Fox News, Rush, Sean, Ann, and all those other 'blowhard idiots' are not teaching college classes at publicly funded universities. I would like to know that the 'blowhard idiots' who are teaching are giving the students all points of view.

CNN is the most biased of any of them. At least Fox reports on just about everything and tries to get in both sides of the story. CNN simply ignores news that doesn't meet up to its liberal standards.

CNN was several hours late in reporting today on the three terrorists held in Britain indicted today in the U.S. for targeting financial institutions, including the NY Stock Exchange. I guess it slipped under their radar, which is apparently pointing at Tom Delay's office.

Well, according to the lunatic minds of many neoconservatives these days, Judges are circumventing the law, Gays are destroying religion, and colleges and unversities are "indoctrination" centers.

This is starting to sound more like pre-WWII Nazi Germany then an American dialogue...

Which thesis, Fox?

That there are more liberal professors than conservative ones? I'd buy that.

But effects thereof? Especially "indoctrination"?

If a person doesn't believe that water freezes when exposed to temperatures below 32 degrees farenheit, and is then given a bowl of water and sent into a meatlocker set to 20 degrees farenheit, with a thermometer on the wall showing that temperature, and the water freezes, and the person decides, oh, water DOES freeze when exposed to temperatures below 32 degrees farenheit... is that indoctrination?

Fox


Once again, you fail to understand the basic course of logic that you are attempting to take. I, along with everyone else here, know what you believe. If that is why you are posting, feel free to stop anytime, because you have made your beliefs perfectly clear.

If you are posting in an attempt to forward an argument, you must do so according to the rules of logic and argumentation; which state that there is no responsibility whatsoever on the Neg side of the argument to provide any evidence whatsoever.

You consistently have failed to show HOW students have been harmed, or provide any real examples of students who have BEEN harmed. I don't mean students who disagree with the prof or his methods, but students who have been harmed by the liberal bias.

Until you can do so more completely than you have to date, your argument will not move forward in any way whatsoever. If you wish to keep posting your beliefs, fine; but expect the ridicule to start pretty soon for wasting our time.

Cycloptichorn

Christ, CNN is almost as bad as FOX. Even MSNBC has the loudmouth Scarborough bloviating with the best of them. They're ALL bad. At least Fox actually admits to being a conservative mouthpiece for the Republican Party. Their take on all things conservative should be telling enough. CNN is really not that far behind, and that's coming from a LIBERAL perspective. I'm not sure how you could possibly think that CNN is "liberal." All of these networks are now more beholding to corporate interests than they are to the U.S. Constitution, and the whole concept of the free press has been circumvented by a public hungry for crap like Michael Jackson, Martha Stewart, and Scott Peterson, ALL THE TIME.

And what was your point regarding the late news regarding the terrorists? BOTH CNN and Fox news reported the death of the Pope HOURS before he died. Neither CNN nor FOX attempted to actually confirm his death. Is that not also irresponsible journalism, or just more of the Tom DeLay sideshow?

http://www.lostremote.com/archives/004226.html

The thesis Sozobe is that when only one point of view is taught, the result is indoctrination rather than education. It should not be left to the students to hunt out different points of view; that should be a given of the educational experience. I'm not at all suggesting any professor should teach error to balance truth, but the professor who leans toward a more socialistic society should be balanced by a professor who leans toward a more libertarian approach; or, ideally, the professor will keep his/her personal convictions to himself and will teach both and encourage the students to assess both.

Again, if one is already in agreement with the professors, s/he is not likely to be aware that there is another point of view other than those s/he has been taught to reject as evil, irrational, greedy, etc. etc. etc. Those of you who are very liberal in your outlook would understand if confronted by professors who graded you down or implied you were idiots for holding the view you do. (No matter how right they are. )

Fox, you are now arguing in the context that ALL classes taught at major universities have a political and ideological bent, and therefore whether it be simple science or creative writing, that there is a "very" liberal angle to all of them, and that ALL of these "poor" students are being "indoctrinated." Can you offer up enough examples of professors grading students down or implying they are idiots for expressing a specific point of view? There must be dozens and dozens of examples in which you can cite that justifies you beginning this thread.

How are students being harmed, Foxfyre? Do you honestly believe that college students in a FREE society cannot think for themselves? Isn't that what we ALL learn in college?

There are numerous examples provided throughout this thread Dookie and I won't bother to respond to how you have mischaracterized what I've said, implied, or intended. Read back through it.

This is your second post on the thread, Fox. I'm not mischaracterizing you when I ask this: Can you show me a single example of brainwashing? Not disagreement, not bad teaching, but institutional brainwashing? I highly doubt it.

Cycloptichorn