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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 12:32 pm
mesquite wrote:
revel wrote:
Ican, foxfrye and others:

When you all bring up conservative christians and liberal christians, do you all mean the type of church that a person goes to being liberal or conservative or the way a christian believes politically making them either a liberal or conservative christian?

Revel, my take on your question is that conservative Christians, ie the ones making all the noise about "values", draw their values primarily from the Old Testament and use the New Testament for salvation. Liberal Christians appear to pay more attention to the messages and example of Jesus. Of course as with most labels neither is a perfect fit for the majority.


Your probably right about labels not being a perfect fit for the majority. It is something we all do, even us liberals :wink:

However, I was wondering if what made a person a liberal christian or conservative christian was more to do with how they believe politically rather than religiously on this board.

I guess we have sidetracked the issue at hand. About the issue at hand I agree with CI and others who have said the burden of proof is on the one peddling the idea rather than the other way around. So far there has been no real proof. what else is left to say on the subject?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 12:43 pm
Then there is no room to 'peddle an idea' just as a discussion starter with hopes there could be a cordial and productive exploration of the pros and cons of it?

The idea was that if ONLY liberal thought is presented and all other is discouraged, there is no way one would ever get a balanced view/education of anything. It could reasonably be argued that an environment of ONLY conservative thought would have the same result.

This is just as true of things religious as it is true of formal education. I am quite conservative politically, a mixed bag socially, and most liberal and outside of the box when it comes to religion. Among the others in my particular church/denomination you have a genuine mix of conservative/liberal/radical/fundamental etc. in the entire human spectrum: politically, socially, religiously, and in every other way. As a result, real education happens.

And when somebody arrives at the point they can declare it a conviction, they are fully informed in a non-prejudicial and non-bigoted way of the alternatives to that conviction.

That was my wish and hope for education as well, and the reason I thought the thread starter to be provocative.

(Edited to correct awkward syntax)
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 01:43 pm
there is something to be said for hearing opposing ideas. it's as important to examine what you believe, or don't, within yourself as it is to proclaim it to the world. because if you just pick up an ideology, religion or stance without thought, you are only serving to further someone else's agenda.

not to mention the most important muscle in your body starts to atrophy.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 02:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Then there is no room to 'peddle an idea' just as a discussion starter with hopes there could be a cordial and productive exploration of the pros and cons of it?

The idea was that if ONLY liberal thought is presented and all other is discouraged, there is no way one would ever get a balanced view/education of anything. It could reasonably be argued that an environment of ONLY conservative thought would have the same result.



So in that sense, shouldn't it be the students who are not conservatives that you are concerned about? Conservatives have already heard one perspective and presumable go to college to get another. Would you be more concerned about students who have not heard conservative ideals?
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 02:54 pm
Many of those with the taste for stoning transgressors may THINK themselves "Christians"... but they do so in grave error.
The Jesus I read about suffered Capital Punishment at the hands of the holier-than-thous who sneered at him... there's a LOT of lessons in THAT statement... ever wonder what Jesus' position on the issue of Capital Punishment might be?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 03:08 pm
Being a liberal or conservative has little to do with being a good educator.

When you show me that the students' educations are actually suffering you'll start to change my mind.

I'm not saying you are wrong to be concerned about it, just that it isn't on my radar screen yet.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 03:35 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Then there is no room to 'peddle an idea' just as a discussion starter with hopes there could be a cordial and productive exploration of the pros and cons of it?

The idea was that if ONLY liberal thought is presented and all other is discouraged, there is no way one would ever get a balanced view/education of anything. It could reasonably be argued that an environment of ONLY conservative thought would have the same result.



So in that sense, shouldn't it be the students who are not conservatives that you are concerned about? Conservatives have already heard one perspective and presumable go to college to get another. Would you be more concerned about students who have not heard conservative ideals?


That is an excellent point FreeDuck. It is only the self proclaimed conservative schools that I see advertising the exclusion of other points of view
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 04:31 pm
revel wrote:
mesquite wrote:
revel wrote:
Your probably right about labels not being a perfect fit for the majority. It is something we all do, even us liberals :wink:

However, I was wondering if what made a person a liberal christian or conservative christian was more to do with how they believe politically rather than religiously on this board.


A couple of pages back I was considering the following characterizations:
Liberals believe they exist by chance and the purpose of life is to honor each other; Conservatives believe they exist by design and the purpose of life is to honor the designer.

After reading the posts here since then and thinking some more about this, I've decided that the ideas of Liberal and Conservative are in deed multi-dimensional. I now think no one of those dimensions can completely characterize either Liberal or Conservative. So here follows my first attempt to characterize some those dimensions using the designations left and right to specify a broad spectrum for each dimension. At this point, I realize that deciding where a Liberal or a Conservative exists within each dimension is not something I know how to do. Confused Perhaps you do.

1. Religion
Left: People exist by chance.
Right: People exist by design.

2. Purpose of Life
Left: The purpose of human life is to honor each other.
Right: The purpose of human life is to honor our designer.

3. Compassion
Left: Provide for the needs of the needy.
Right: Teach the needy how to provide for their own needs.

4. Rule of Law
Left: Interpret the law in the context of the times.
Right: Interpret the law as interpreted by the adopters of the law.

5. Equality
Left: Government shall treat people according to their needs.
Right: Government shall treat people the same regardless of their needs.

6. Taxes
Left: Tax everyone's income according to their ability to pay.
Right: Tax everyone's income uniformly regardless of their ability to pay.

7. National Defense
Left: Negotiate with those threatening to do or are doing you harm.
Right: Harm those threatening to do or are doing you harm.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 05:04 pm
Evidently this discussion extends beyond this thread. I did a google and a lot of this stuff came up.

The following is an article I found interesting that I don't offer as any kind of proof or anything just as someone else's viewpoint about this subect. Since I am a 'lefty' it is of course, a liberal viewpoint.

Why Republicans shun ivy towers
- Steven Lubet
Thursday, December 2, 2004


Conservative activists are on the march, determined to expose hotbeds of liberal influence wherever they find (or even suspect) them. Their latest target is higher education, one of the few corners of American life where liberal ideas still hold sway. Indeed several recent studies have confirmed that Democrats greatly outnumber Republicans -- in some cases, by ratios of 7 to 1 -- on many university faculties. This revelation has caused outrage in conservative quarters (including columnist George F. Will; see "No diversity of thought," Nov. 29) where it is considered evidence of liberal manipulation -- and worse.

Leading the charge is David Horowitz, a former student leftist who is now president of the right-leaning Center for the Study of Popular Culture. According to Horowitz, there has been a "successful and pervasive blacklist of conservatives on American college campuses," that can only be rectified by the intervention of state legislatures and boards of trustees. He has called for an "Academic Bill of Rights" to protect the interests of conservative faculty and students.

Other conservatives make similar claims. Thomas Reeves of the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute, for example, has insisted that "conservatives are discriminated against routinely and deliberately" in faculty hiring, making some well-qualified candidates virtually "unemployable" on respected campuses.

These are odd arguments to hear from conservatives, since they usually deny that disproportionate statistics can be taken as proof of discrimination. When it comes to employment discrimination or affirmative action, conservatives will blithely insist that the absence of minorities (in a workforce or student body) simply means that there were too few "qualified applicants" from a particular group. And don't bother talking to them about a "glass ceiling" or "mommy track" that impedes women's careers. That's not discrimination, they say, it's "self-selection."

Conservatives abandon these arguments, however, when it comes to their own prospects in academe. Then the relative scarcity of Republican professors is widely asserted as proof of willful prejudice.

Of course, there are other possible explanations. Perhaps fewer conservatives than liberals are willing to endure the years of poverty- stricken graduate study necessary for a faculty position. Perhaps conservatives are smarter than liberals, recognizing that graduate school is a poor investment, given the scant job opportunities that await newly minted Ph. D.s. Or perhaps studious conservatives are more attracted to the greater financial rewards of industry and commerce.

Beyond the ivy walls, there are many professions that are dominated by Republicans. You will find very few Democrats (and still fewer outright liberals) among the ranks of high-level corporate executives, military officers or football coaches. Yet no one complains about these imbalances, and conservatives will no doubt explain that the seeming disparities are merely the result of market forces.
They are probably right. It is entirely rational for conservatives to flock to jobs that reward competition, aggression and victory at the expense of others. So it should not be surprising that liberals gravitate to professions -- such as academics, journalism, social work and the arts -- that emphasize inquiry, objectivity and the free exchange of ideas. After all, teachers at all levels -- from nursery school to graduate school -- tend to be Democrats. Surely there cannot be a conspiracy to deny conservatives employment on kindergarten playgrounds.

Alas, there have in fact been instances of political discrimination in academic hiring and promotion. And yes, conservatives -- both faculty and students -- have been snubbed or mistreated on overwhelmingly liberal campuses. More important, certain professors, and in some cases entire departments, have crossed the line from legitimate scholarship to overtly politicized advocacy, most frequently coming from the left. These problems should be vigorously addressed as individual cases, and remedied where necessary -- perhaps by disciplining individual professors, or even by reorganizing errant departments. But none of this is proof of systematic intimidation or blacklisting, as alleged by Horowitz and others.

The reality is that universities, by their nature, tend to be liberal institutions, not only in the United States, but in many countries around the world. Conservatives may bemoan the social forces behind this phenomenon, but there is nothing sinister about it. Nonetheless, liberals (like me) should admit that faculties face a risk of intellectual conformity, which can be stultifying and confining even when it is unintentional. Most major universities would likely benefit from the presence of more conservative scholars, who would sharpen the dialog and challenge many assumptions. I might even be convinced to support some form of recruiting outreach or affirmative action for Republicans -- but surely my conservative colleagues would never stand for it.

Steven Lubet ([email protected]) is a professor of law at Northwestern University. His latest book is "Murder in Tombstone: The Forgotten Trial of Wyatt Earp" (Yale University Press, 2004).

Page B - 9
URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/02/EDGNBA4QU51.DTL

[obviously the italics is added by me]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 05:26 pm
revel wrote:
You are asking us to prove a negative.
Nothing wrong with that. Too any people buy the notion one cannot prove a negative. Of course one can if the negative is true. After assuming (at least) what they observe to be real is actualy real, scientists and enginers regularly prove negatives in proving some other scientist's or engineer's theory is false. My favorite is proving the earth is not flat. This has been done multiple times based on certain surface based astronomical observations. It has also been done multiple times by flying at 45,000 feet. :wink: And it has also been done multiple times by astronauts observing the earth from orbit or from the moon.

So the questions here are: Does immoral compassion exist; Does moral compassion exist? Yes? or No?

I define moral compassion as that compassion which tends to lead people to help others to become independent of their helper. I define immoral compassion as that compassion which tends to lead people to help others to become dependent on their helper.

I hypothesize Yes to be the valid answer to both questions and thereby imply a hypothesis of No to be an invalid answer.

To prove the answer to the first question is yes, I must first assume what I observe to be real is actualy real. If that's true, then the compassion of the helper of certain people deserving of moral compassion, in LBJ's war on poverty, is observed by me to have increased and not decreased the dependencies of those helped on their helpers. So immoral compassion does exist.

Also, to prove the answer to the second question is yes, I must first assume what I observe to be real is actualy real. If that is true, then the compassion of the help given to certain people deserving of moral compassion, in JFK's space program, is observed by me to have decreased and not increased the dependencies of the helped on their helpers. So moral compassion does exist.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 06:22 pm
Ican wrote:
Quote:

1. Religion
Left: People exist by chance.
Right: People exist by design.

2. Purpose of Life
Left: The purpose of human life is to honor each other.
Right: The purpose of human life is to honor our designer.

3. Compassion
Left: Provide for the needs of the needy.
Right: Teach the needy how to provide for their own needs.

4. Rule of Law
Left: Interpret the law in the context of the times.
Right: Interpret the law as interpreted by the adopters of the law.

5. Equality
Left: Government shall treat people according to their needs.
Right: Government shall treat people the same regardless of their needs.

6. Taxes
Left: Tax everyone's income according to their ability to pay.
Right: Tax everyone's income uniformly regardless of their ability to pay.

7. National Defense
Left: Negotiate with those threatening to do or are doing you harm.
Right: Harm those threatening to do or are doing you harm.


I can see merit in each thumbnail analogy except I think for the "Purpose of Life" category. I think among both liberal and conservative points of view, you find the gamut from "There is no purpose" to "Everything is engraved in stone and whatever purpose there is cannot be changed" with everything in between. I don't think its easy to peg these philosophies into a left and right mode.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 07:33 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I can see merit in each thumbnail analogy except I think for the "Purpose of Life" category. I think among both liberal and conservative points of view, you find the gamut from "There is no purpose" to "Everything is engraved in stone and whatever purpose there is cannot be changed" with everything in between. I don't think its easy to peg these philosophies into a left and right mode.
I concede your points. Now that I reflect on your post a little, I feel compelled to grant the very real possibility that all seven dimensions I listed are themselves multi-dimensional. Worse, they may also not be separable dimensions.

For now, I'm thinking the designations left, right, liberal, conservative cloud and do not enhance understanding of what people actually think and/or advocate.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 07:40 pm
I think the designations themselves, used to denote a particular ideology or point of view without adding all the negative connotations we sometimes include, can in themselves be useful so we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time we try to talk about ideology.

I think the real problem comes when they are used to slur another person or group of people or when we attempt to pigeonhole somebody into an absolute category.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 09:19 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I can see merit in each thumbnail analogy except I think for the "Purpose of Life" category. I think among both liberal and conservative points of view, you find the gamut from "There is no purpose" to "Everything is engraved in stone and whatever purpose there is cannot be changed" with everything in between. I don't think its easy to peg these philosophies into a left and right mode.
I concede your points. Now that I reflect on your post a little, I feel compelled to grant the very real possibility that all seven dimensions I listed are themselves multi-dimensional. Worse, they may also not be separable dimensions.

For now, I'm thinking the designations left, right, liberal, conservative cloud and do not enhance understanding of what people actually think and/or advocate.


ican ! i'm enjoying your last couple of posts. keep it up.
0 Replies
 
ForeverYoung
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2004 09:36 pm
ican711nm wrote:
For now, I'm thinking the designations left, right, liberal, conservative cloud and do not enhance understanding of what people actually think and/or advocate.


I so agree with that. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 08:53 am
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
You are asking us to prove a negative.
Nothing wrong with that. Too any people buy the notion one cannot prove a negative. Of course one can if the negative is true. After assuming (at least) what they observe to be real is actualy real, scientists and enginers regularly prove negatives in proving some other scientist's or engineer's theory is false. My favorite is proving the earth is not flat. This has been done multiple times based on certain surface based astronomical observations. It has also been done multiple times by flying at 45,000 feet. :wink: And it has also been done multiple times by astronauts observing the earth from orbit or from the moon.

So the questions here are: Does immoral compassion exist; Does moral compassion exist? Yes? or No?

I define moral compassion as that compassion which tends to lead people to help others to become independent of their helper. I define immoral compassion as that compassion which tends to lead people to help others to become dependent on their helper.

I hypothesize Yes to be the valid answer to both questions and thereby imply a hypothesis of No to be an invalid answer.

To prove the answer to the first question is yes, I must first assume what I observe to be real is actualy real. If that's true, then the compassion of the helper of certain people deserving of moral compassion, in LBJ's war on poverty, is observed by me to have increased and not decreased the dependencies of those helped on their helpers. So immoral compassion does exist.

Also, to prove the answer to the second question is yes, I must first assume what I observe to be real is actualy real. If that is true, then the compassion of the help given to certain people deserving of moral compassion, in JFK's space program, is observed by me to have decreased and not increased the dependencies of the helped on their helpers. So moral compassion does exist.


I really didn't want to get into your list as I felt to do so would just cause more bickering, suffice it to say, I don't think it is a very good one as it makes too many generalizations.

There are really only two I feel like taking issue with, the one about left only wanting to take care of people instead of helping them help themselves as well. I believe in doing the latter and Clinton did do the latter so.. And the one about the left not believing in pleasing the creator, I believe in pleasing the creator first and people second as those are two greatest commandments.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 09:32 am
Jesus, we are doomed. After pages of sophmoric drivel, strawmen, and knee-jerk cliche, revel quotes the first bit of sustained reasoning (from Lubet) that makes any sense and you guys pass it by.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 10:22 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I think the real problem comes when they are used to slur another person or group of people or when we attempt to pigeonhole somebody into an absolute category.


Shocked Shocked
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 10:46 am
blatham wrote:
Jesus, we are doomed. After pages of sophmoric drivel, strawmen, and knee-jerk cliche, revel quotes the first bit of sustained reasoning (from Lubet) that makes any sense and you guys pass it by.
I didn't really pass it by. I reacted to it by my failed attempt to come up with a satisfactory definition of the political terms liberal, conservative, left, right.

For me to fully comprehend and judge the validity of Lubet's article I need to know what those terms really mean. Perhaps my problem is actually simpler than I think. I'm a registered Republican who doesn't "shun ivy towers." I only shun voting for some Republican and Democratic candidates. I'm not a conservative activist "on the march, determined to expose hotbeds of liberal wherever they find (or even suspect) them." I merely seek and am content to lie in one particular warm bed. Smile

Only this quote from Lubet's article really interests me. I thought its last sentence funny as I'm sure it was meant to be. But what is a liberal institution, a conservative institution, a liberal scholar, and a conservative scholar? Lubet doesn't say, and from my previous posts you should be able to tell, I can't say either.

Steven Lubet wrote:
The reality is that universities, by their nature, tend to be liberal institutions, not only in the United States, but in many countries around the world. Conservatives may bemoan the social forces behind this phenomenon, but there is nothing sinister about it. Nonetheless, liberals (like me) should admit that faculties face a risk of intellectual conformity, which can be stultifying and confining even when it is unintentional. Most major universities would likely benefit from the presence of more conservative scholars, who would sharpen the dialog and challenge many assumptions. I might even be convinced to support some form of recruiting outreach or affirmative action for Republicans -- but surely my conservative colleagues would never stand for it.


Yes, I believe in the Ten Commandments, The Golden Rule, The Declaration of Independence, The Rule of Law, and rooting for people. Do either conservatives or liberals or leftists or rightists not believe in those things too? Confused
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 01:31 pm
blatham wrote:
Jesus, we are doomed. After pages of sophmoric drivel, strawmen, and knee-jerk cliche, revel quotes the first bit of sustained reasoning (from Lubet) that makes any sense and you guys pass it by.


Indeed we are doomed if the postings on A2K are to be our salvation.

As for Lubet's comment's, I, apparently, missed them (save for those quoted by ican), but I think he is correct (as I pointed out in my prior posting) to be concerned with intellectual conformity at our universities.

If conservative scholars cannot, for whatever reasons, be recruited into teaching at our universities, perhaps the existing liberal professors might want to try the unique approach of encouraging students to consider all points of view rather than continuing with their current tactics of indoctrination and intellectual bullying.
0 Replies
 
 

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