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Separation of Church and State

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:29 pm
Quote:
"Follow the money." That's one standby in journalism. Another could be "follow the invitations."

We've seen an example, recently, of what can happen when the credentials of someone the Bush administration favors were exposed to public scrutiny. But there are an awful lot of White House cronies getting a free ride.

The Washington Post provoked a firestorm this January, when it pointed out that the Bush administration had nominated Jerry Thacker, a Christian conservative, to the president's council on HIV and AIDS.

Thacker has called AIDS the "gay plague" and homosexuality a "deathstyle." His words showed up on the World Wide Web in various places, until they were purged. The same day that the Post story ran, Thacker withdrew his nomination, which made more news.

But what was missing in all the coverage of this aborted nomination, was any word on the members who remain on Bush's council.

As the Post revealed, Thacker's a wacky guy with unscientific views about homosexuality, AIDS transmission and how to preserve the public health, but he is far from alone in the Bush administration in holding those beliefs, and he wouldn't have been alone on the President's Advisory Council on HIV/AIDS (PACHA).

Check out the list drawn up by the group, People for the American Way, and you find that PACHA's Director is Patricia Funderburk Ware, described as "a key advocate of abstinence-only sex education." Ware, like many in the administration, supports teaching kids about abstinence only, when it comes to sex, and banning any other information about what might help protect against disease.

PACHA's co-chair is Former Republican Rep. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, a Religious Right leader with a 100 percent rating from the Christian Coalition. Coburn's on the board of Gary Bauer's Family Research Council which also opposes comprehensive sex education.

Another member is Dr. Joe McIlhaney, director of something called the Medical Institute in Texas. A colleague who worked with McIlhaney told the Austin Chronicle that he refuses even to talk about condoms, despite years of science showing that proper condom use saves lives.

Thacker was wrong, and now he's gone, but that's only one half of the story. The public got another half story, January 29, when the press covered a guest at the President's State of the Union address.

Writing about one of those invited to sit with the first lady, The New York Times (among others) mentioned Tonja Myles, director of an anti-drug addiction program at the Healing Place Church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Mr. Bush talked about the Healing Place in his speech.

The religious nature of Myles' program, said the Times, "illustrates the concerns of critics who worry about the separation of church and state." Readers would have been better equipped to assess those "critics" concerns had they known that Myles testified in 2001 at the Louisiana legislature in favor of a creationist-sponsored resolution.

The resolution, which passed, over the objections of educators and scholars, declares that Darwin and evolution are racist, "Ku Klux Klan thinking." Myles' record was reported in the Lousiana Advocate.

One can hope that in the next few weeks, the media will bring us lots of in depth coverage of those nominees whom the Bush administration would see confirmed to the federal bench. But when it comes to spending public money or framing the public's policy, not only judges count.

The people whom the Bush administration embraces are the American public's business, and we rely on journalists to bring us all the picture, not just part of it.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7174
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:30 pm
Quote:
Delay isn't exactly a politician known for plain-speaking. But in a confessional moment, recently reported by The Washington Post, Delay's remarks to a Texas Baptist church summed up his view of what's right and wrong in America -- and for America.

"Ladies and gentlemen,' Delay told the congregation, "Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?'
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:31 pm
Quote:
One of the earliest and most vociferous critics of President Bush's faith-based initiative is smiling all the way to the bank. In early October, Tommy Thompson's Department of Health and Human Services awarded a $500,000 Compassion Capital Fund grant to televangelist Pat Robertson's Virginia-based Operation Blessing International.



Operation Blessing was among 21 groups receiving a total of $25 million from HHS. The Associated Press reported that grants from the Compassion Capital Fund "were designed to provide technical assistance to smaller churches and others that need help applying for and running government programs." Although HHS has indicated that smaller groups dealing with homelessness, hunger, at-risk children, welfare to work, drug addicts and prisoners "should get priority for the sub-grants," in the end, the primary grantees will be making those decisions.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 11:16 pm
The payoffs begin!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 07:42 am
Turkey, Operation Blessing, Congress -- they can all be bought.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 09:49 am
tres

Perhaps you are looking for an on/off switch here, some Presidential Proclamation written in lamb's blood decreeing Christianity (Born Again Version) the official state faith.

Of course, that's not what one living in a modern state is to be alert to. Rather it is the appointments of personnel to key positions, the redirection of government funds, the statements that reveal not a pluralist leaning but a push towards a singular direction. And the justification that the righteous truth of the one real faith was indeed appreciated by the framers, who intended a country within that faith.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 12:51 pm
blatham wrote:
Perhaps you are looking for an on/off switch here, some Presidential Proclamation written in lamb's blood decreeing Christianity (Born Again Version) the official state faith.

Of course, that's not what one living in a modern state is to be alert to. Rather it is the appointments of personnel to key positions, the redirection of government funds, the statements that reveal not a pluralist leaning but a push towards a singular direction. And the justification that the righteous truth of the one real faith was indeed appreciated by the framers, who intended a country within that faith.

If in 2008 we were to elect a devout Jew as President, I would expect him to make statements and take actions based on his beliefs. I would not be concerned that we were becoming a Jewish nation.

I am not looking for an all or nothing solution here; rather that is what the other side of this debate seems to seek. You claim that we should not hold someone's faith against him or her, yet you do it everyday. You attack Bush, Rumsfeld and others because they are men of faith. Yes, you attack their actions, but there is a vitriol with which many speak of and belittle their beliefs.

Oh, and for the record, let's look at a few more recipients of Compassion Capital Fund Grants:

United Way of Massachusetts $ 2,000,000
JVA Consulting, Inc. CO $ 1,008,547

Christian Community Health Fellowship IL $ 1,128,330
The National Center for Faith Based Initiative FL $ 700,000
Montana Office of Rural Health MT $ 614,555
Associated Black Charities, Inc. MD $ 1,500,000
Clemson University SC $ 1,033,341
Southeast Asia Resource Action Center DC $ 682,240
Community Technology Centers' Network (CTCNET) MA $ 1,499,770
Emory University GA $ 1,499,999

Operation Blessing International VA $ 500,000
Mennonite Economic Development Associates PA $ 1,000,000
Nueva Esperanza, Inc. PA $ 2,466,406
University of Nebraska NE $ 1,160,742
CJH Educational Grant Services, Inc. NC $ 1,506,987
Institute for Youth Development VA $ 2,500,000

Catholic Charities of Central New Mexico NM $ 1,000,000
Northside Ministerial Alliance MI $ 1,000,000
Volunteers of America, Inc. VA $ 699,159
University of Hawaii HI $ 600,000
S.V.D.P. Management, Inc. CA $ 673,041


Those shown in bold above are not faith-based organizations.

By my calculations, 78% of the money is going to secular organizations. Now, I understand that some of these are tasked with doling out the money they are receiving to smaller, regional charities, and I recognize that some percentage of these can be faith-based, but that determination is now in secular hands.

Now, the big question everyone ought to be asking is: Has any better-qualified secular or non-Christian organization been turned down for a grant?

And (forgive me for the length of this post, but) I need to again ask a question no one has answered for me: If the government denies capable organizations access to apply for these grants simply because the organization is associated with a specific church or faith, isn't the government discriminating based on faith? I think everyone would agree that they would be were we discussing an individual, and I think many of you are refusing to think outside your personal "box" in refusing to consider this a valid analogy.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 12:53 pm
I'd like everyone to consider the following excerpt from a speech:

Quote:
So tonight, we must forge a new social compact to meet the challenges of this time. As we enter a new era, we need a new set of understandings, not just with government, but even more important, with one another as Americans.

That's what I want to talk with you about tonight. I call it the New Covenant. But it's grounded in a very, very old idea -- that all Americans have not just a right, but a solid responsibility to rise as far as their God-given talents and determination can take them; and to give something back to their communities and their country in return. Opportunity and responsibility: They go hand in hand. We can't have one without the other. And our national community can't hold together without both.

Our New Covenant is a new set of understandings for how we can equip our people to meet the challenges of a new economy, how we can change the way our government works to fit a different time, and, above all, how we can repair the damaged bonds in our society and come together behind our common purpose.
...
We all gain when we give, and we reap what we sow. That's at the heart of this New Covenant -- responsibility, opportunity and citizenship. More than stale chapters in some remote civics book; they're still the virtue by which we can fulfill ourselves and reach our God-given potential and be like them; and also to fulfill the eternal promise of this country -- the enduring dream from that first and most sacred covenant.

I believe every person in this country still believes that we are created equal, and given by our Creator, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is a very, very great country. And our best days are still to come.

Thank you, and God bless you all.

Now, I hope those of you who are attacking Bush for his expressions of his faith will acknowledge that, were these his words, you would hold them up as evidence that his faith and his expressions of faith are inappropriate to his position.

This excerpt is from Bill Clinton's 1995 State of the Union Address.

In fact, the only reason I think this stuff never rang bells when coming from Clinton--who disingenuously referred to God and his alleged faith quite often--is that everyone suspected that he didn't mean a single expression of faith or comment about religious belief that crossed his lips.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 02:13 pm
Tres

I have NO idea whatsoever whether Rumsfeld is a believer, nor Cheney, nor Wolfowitz, nor Perle. My voiced disagreements are totally as regards their political actions and ideas.

I have spoken against the influence of the evangelical wing within the Republican party, and thus on its influence in politics. Bush is a representative and manifestation of this power. It is exclusivist (the only way to God) and that is reflected in the comments of both Bush and the other chap I quoted above (not to mention the many other voices such as Falwell, Roberts, Grapham, etc) and that carries the danger of hubris and self-righteouness. It is NOT the case that these fellows would be tolerant of a five dollar bill that said "In Vishnu We Trust"....and you ought to be more honest about that.

Then you do the move that I've been waiting for....you quote Clinton. You predictably follow that with the claim that his belief is debased or false. We are having a bit of trouble, tres, clarifying who might be in a box here.

Whether Clinton is a believer or not is not known to me. Many men and women far smarter, wiser, and more intelligent than you and I are believers and others similarly described are non-believers. I think that in itself is absolutely irrelevant in a leader. What's not irrelevant is that there isn't a chance in hell a Hindu or an athiest could hope to gain high position in your country, and that is increasingly true as the evangelical element increases in influence. What is also relevant is the notion, inherent in evangelism, that it is only through Jesus that man is redeemed and thus it is morally beholden upon adherents to pursue furtherance of their faith.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 02:37 pm
blatham - The only box in which you and I find ourselves is the one you have constructed by assuming that everything I write pertains to you or was intended to. The comments to which you chose to respond were made to everyone in general. If they don't fit you, fine. Don't pretend I made specific attributions that don't fit.

As to your quotes, you seem to think there is something wrong with Delay, a Christian, speaking IN CHURCH, stating his belief that his faith is the one true faith. What concern is it of yours what he says in church or what he believes? You want to hold his profession of faith up as something bad, which seems to me to fly in the face of religious freedom.

As to Bush, I have seen no quote where he claims his belief is the only true belief, but what of it if he has made such a declaration outside his official capacity as president? Don't Jews and Muslims think their faith is the one true faith?

The only place I can see your arguments going is towards denying any adherent of any religious faith the right to hold federal office. Is that what you want? Because absent that you will always have men of faith making decisions based on their faith and acting on their faith. IT IS WHAT MEN OF FAITH DO.

And I have yet to see anything approaching evidence that Bush or his administration are giving preferential treatment to Christians over those of other faiths. You and others keep complaining this will happen, but no one has shown a single case where it has.

And--as usual--you and others have ignored my question as to federal discrimination against religious groups.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 03:30 pm
Quote:
Don't Jews and Muslims think their faith is the one true faith?
No, many do not. A year or so ago, during a PBS broadcase, representatives of a number of faiths were in conversation regarding some matter. Only one of them insisted there was but one way to god, and in doing so, proceded to disregard all the others talking. It was as rude and unsophiticated a performance as I've seen in a conversation among faith-holders. That was Billy Grapham's son.

Nor do many Christians believe their way is the only way to god (though I suspect others would subsequently exclude them as Christians in that case).

Do men 'always act on their faith'? What of, say, the Supreme Court? We all bring values and beliefs into our community interactions, but politically we are constrained in carrying through on those beliefs because of the separation of church and state. Or, we ought to be.

Faith or lack of it in an office holder is irrelevant to me. With one exception. Where that faith is exclusivist (our way, the only way) and doctrinally directed towards ensuring it's particular standards are the standards for all (the Taliban), then it becomes entirely relevant. I suspect you won't be happy with a comparison between Evangelical Christianity and the Taliban, but I suggest that's because you want to go black/white on this question, and not admit that Christianity as practiced by evangelicals within (particularly) the Republican Party could or would make such a mistake.

Now, if you are willing to acknowledge that evangelical christianity as presently constituted and as presently influential might POSSIBLY be a danger to separation (thus liberty), I'll go to the further trouble of researching and arguing specific cases.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 03:30 pm
I knew Clinton was a believer and admired him for it. Why? Particularly since I'm so strongly against the admix of governance and religion? Because Clinton's faith was not only strongly felt but (and this is important) it was private. Clinton did not proselytize. He didn't use his position to promote religion or religiosity. Bush does. Ashcroft does in spades. In my view a president should make it clear that he, as president, FIRST AND FOREMOST represents all of us and is therefore very careful not to offend other religious beliefs OR non-believers. I have no problem with DeLay saying what he was quoted as saying in his church. If he did so purposefully, knowing a reporter was present, then I think he showed bad judgment.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 03:40 pm
For those of you who will recall it, i would remind you of the issue which was made about John Kennedy being a catholic. I've had bible-thumpers who were trying to proselytize who told me quite frankly that they don't consider catholics christians, and some even went so far as to describe the Pope as the Anti-Christ (Holy 16th Century, Batman!). There are two points which i see in this--the first is that the United States continues to be a nation with a specifically Protestant christian complexion, and the second that right-wing christians in 1960 were worried in degrees from mildly concerned to ranting and raving over the prospect that a catholic in the White House might be influencec by his religion, but consider it not only not alarming, but a good thing if a Prez pushes a Protestant agenda. The ideal of the United States is that of a secular state with a pluralistic society; not only is the practice far from the ideal, but there is an active movement to end the secular nature of this nation's government. It is problematic whether or not such an accusation can be laid at Bush's door; my personal belief is that it can.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 03:56 pm
DeLay, bad judgement - tell me this isn't so, the anti-christ using bad judgement. Now my day is ruined!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 04:04 pm
My personal belief concurs with your personal belief, Setenta!!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 05:01 pm
Tres
Quote:
And--as usual--you and others have ignored my question as to federal discrimination against religious groups.

As usual you missed the point. The government is not discriminating against religious groups. They are doing what the law says they must. Conform with the separation of church and state statues.
I should also note that in the Christian tradition as I have heard if you do not believe you cannot go to heaven. What is it, fire and brimstone and eternal damnation? Not so in Judaism. rightous people of all faiths go to heaven. As for whether Jews believe that their faith is the one true faith that never comes up it is not a jewish concept. There is no interest in how other faiths worship nor are they interested in conversions.

I also noted that in that list of faith based organizations receiving largesse there seem to be none of the Muslim or Jewish faiths listed.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 09:07 pm
au1929 wrote:
I also noted that in that list of faith based organizations receiving largesse there seem to be none of the Muslim or Jewish faiths listed.


Sorta jumps out at ya, doesn't it?



timber
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 11:19 pm
Quote:
Now, if you are willing to acknowledge that evangelical christianity as presently constituted and as presently influential might POSSIBLY be a danger to separation (thus liberty), I'll go to the further trouble of researching and arguing specific cases.

Anything and everything can be a threat to liberty. The first liberty, without which all others are lost, is the right to live, and radical Islam is the biggest organized threat to the lives of Americans at this time, so I would think you would be more concerned about that real and present threat rather than what could happen if...

I find myself in a strange situation here, defending the right of all religions to have open access to our government at the same time as I believe the federal government shouldn't be involved in paying anyone to perform charitable work, faith-based or secular. But, until we stop them from doing so, the government should not be in the business of denying this person or that group of persons access to grants, work, employment, or opportunity simply because person X or group Y is of faith Z.

Show me where the government is playing favorites, and I'll stand beside you and say they are wrong, but so long as they are treating all religions the same, I see no first Amendment problem.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Feb, 2003 11:21 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Quote:
I also noted that in that list of faith based organizations receiving largesse there seem to be none of the Muslim or Jewish faiths listed.


Sorta jumps out at ya, doesn't it?

timber

Timber - Can you offer any evidence that any qualified Muslim or Jewish organizations applied? Seems like you'd want to know that before you jumped to any conclusions; at least it seems that way to me.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Feb, 2003 09:48 am
Tres

That's a good careful response. I have to tell you I'm quite busy right now, but I will take this matter up as a first priority here.

But let me quickly address your first paragraph. One can be concerned regarding radical Islam (I am) and still have lots of attention available for other concerns and threats (dangerous crosswalks near home, kids' schooling, national policy initiatives, etc). We all do this regularly. For citizens to allow all their attention to be focused merely where a sitting administration would like it to be focused is lousy citizenship.

I think this administration is more likely to make the threat from radical Islamists worse by the actions it is taking. I think also that they are making moves in terms of internal policy that are a real threat to liberties (intelligence gathering and social policy).

I see three elements common to both these external and internal policies I think dangerous: the hawks in this administration, the influence of the evangelical wing on republican policy, and a leader I consider to be inadequately bright or educated for the most complex presidency since the last war, if even that time is comparable in compexity.

I understand you won't agree that my view reflects reality, but given that it is my view, I've concluded I ought to share it.

Last quick point...Iraq and Sadaam, being relatively secular, and themselves the target of much radical Islamicist rhetoric, this targetting of Iraq becomes even more inconsistent. On the US, UN, and Iraq thread I just posted this morning a link to a PBS documentary on the Bush Doctrine and on the fellows responsible for it. Please watch it (you can view it or read it online)...link on other thread.
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