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Separation of Church and State

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 11:50 am
tres i understand that the colorado supreme court will decide that. and your response from the dictionary is less than meaningful when compared to actual religious practices/beliefs.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 12:15 pm
dyslexia wrote:
tres i understand that the colorado supreme court will decide that. and your response from the dictionary is less than meaningful when compared to actual religious practices/beliefs.

dys - I understand that you value your point of view over mine, and that you don't wish to be challenged to show your complaint has any true legal merit.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 12:19 pm
Bush talking more about religion.
Apparently Bush does not understand the concept of separation of Church and state.



http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/18/bush.faith/index.html
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 12:27 pm
From the article cited above:
Quote:
Yet lately, Bush has gone beyond his usual broad remarks on the power of faith in general to use language and ideas specific to Christianity.

Can anyone cite for me any specific thing Bush has said which justifies the statement made above. ANYTHING? (The author who made the claim sure didn't bother to back it up with a single citation.)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 01:06 pm
Tw
I know this won't satisfy you but from the article
Quote:
In Nashville, Bush praised Americans' "deep and diverse religious beliefs." But he also singled out a special place for Christianity, calling the gospel that the broadcasters share over the airwaves "words of truth."

I would prefer that our president be the president not a preacher. Than again maybe that should be his calling, the presidency certainly is not.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 01:34 pm
as you have in prior posts impugned my intelligence i shall again refute your above statement that i have offered no prior true legal merit. article 11 of the colorado state constitution "Nor shall any preference be given by law to any religious denomination or mode of worship." in this regard i have offered my understanding of actual usage demonstrating that "IN GOD WE TRUST" does give preference to christian religions. You on the other hand, have disregarded what information i have presented by citing the dictionary. I do believe it is you that does not wish to be challanged regarding legal merit. I consider this issue in context with Rep Tom DeLay when he said in regard to the shootings at Columbine High School to be the result of the teaching of evolution. The consistent efforts of a few political/religious organizatons such as Focus on the Family to undermine the religious freedom one state at a time dismisses the idea that when one expects respect for ones own religion one must give respect for others. When you show no respect for my beliefs you can hardly expect me to honor yours.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:07 pm
But his is the state religion, dys.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:13 pm
dys - I'm sorry you got drawn into a back-and-forth about whether the God in "In God we Trust" is the Judeo-Christian one. If you were dealing with almost anyone else, we could stipulate the same under the "reasonable person rule", which would allow us to discuss things that most reasonable people accept as a given.

Reading this stuff, I'm reminded of the times when someone tries to get me involved in an argument that starts out "Show me concrete proof that there is blatant racism in America today." I refrain from entering this type of no-win exchange, because it's like hollering down a well, or trying to introduce a forest dweller to the concept of trees.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:20 pm
Quote:
I know this won't satisfy you...

You are right; it does not. Not because I disagree, but because I asked for a specific quote--as in specific words he used, not someone else's characterization of what he said. The characterization in your example may be accurate, but neither you nor I have any way to judge.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:28 pm
"Apparently Bush does not understand the concept of separation of Church and state. " Ohhh, I think he understands pretty well. Respect the concept? No way, not our Friend of Jeeee-Zuss.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:36 pm
Lw-- I assume that was a quote.
I did not need the article to affirm his goal to destroy the concept of separation of church and state, and his evangelical bent. His religious initiatives have made that quite clear. He is trying to destroy one of the basic concepts by which this nation has grown and prospered.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 03:00 pm
au, if it was just one, I might feel better. My current count has surpassed 100 basic concepts changed. No wonder the good ole USA is currently going down the tubes. Regime change starts at home!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 03:28 pm
Administration aims to end sex trafficking
The Bush administration this week is taking on international sex trafficking. State Department in cooperation with the War Against Trafficking Alliance–Shared Hope International, the Protection Project at the Johns Hopkins University School for Advanced International Studies, the International Justice Mission, and the Salvation Army–will feature top administration officials including Attorney General John Ashcroft and HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson, and possibly President Bush as well. They plan to speak out against nations that allow or look the other way on sex trafficking of youths. Sources say the objective of the February 20 summit is to review all the best practices utilized by different countries and develop a universal strategy that uses all of these best practices. The president can impose sanctions on countries that don't prosecute these crimes effectively.
A little more of Bush's evangelical fever. This should win us new friends. Stupid mind your own business and address the problems in this country
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 03:55 pm
au1929 wrote:
Administration aims to end sex trafficking
The Bush administration this week is taking on international sex trafficking. State Department in cooperation with the War Against Trafficking Alliance–Shared Hope International, the Protection Project at the Johns Hopkins University School for Advanced International Studies, the International Justice Mission, and the Salvation Army–will feature top administration officials including Attorney General John Ashcroft and HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson, and possibly President Bush as well. They plan to speak out against nations that allow or look the other way on sex trafficking of youths. Sources say the objective of the February 20 summit is to review all the best practices utilized by different countries and develop a universal strategy that uses all of these best practices. The president can impose sanctions on countries that don't prosecute these crimes effectively.
A little more of Bush's evangelical fever. This should win us new friends. Stupid mind your own business and address the problems in this country

Let me get this straight... You consider an effort to stop the victimization of minors in the sex trade (porn and prostitution) as a RELIGIOUS effort, and one with which you disagree?

I'm beginning to think that you don't even bother reading this stuff anymore. You see the name "Bush" and assume you should be against whatever he is for. Um, okay. ??? I guess that's one vote in favor of kiddie porn. Sad

Anyone else? Rolling Eyes
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 04:06 pm
tres
I object to him interjecting himself in to the affairs of other nations. As usual you manage to come up with the wrong conclusion. The one which will make you happy. If he wants to address a problem there are enought to keep his feeble mind busy right here in the states forever.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 04:08 pm
au, Typical Extreme Ring Wing political ploy - create the straw dog!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 04:59 pm
Quote:
Questions Of Faith
For Reporters Covering Bush's Faith-Based Initiative

New York-based Russ Baker is an award-winning journalist who covers politics and media.

Perhaps it was appropriate that President Bush chose Nashville's Opryland on February 10 to deliver his sermon on why taxpayer money ought to be given to religious groups. A cultural shrine to musical laments about unfaithfulness only underlines the president's breaking of faith -- with the Jeffersonian creed separating church from state.

Bush's benign-sounding new executive order banning "discrimination" against faith-based charities in the distribution of federal social service grants and building monies will surely play well in the first round of opinion polls -- especially among members of his right-wing religious constituency, the footsoldiers of the GOP.

"What objective evidence leads you to think that religious groups, despite their rhetoric of compassion, are particularly suited to improving the nation's moral fabric?"



But are mainstream journalists prepared to ask the tough questions that will expose the dangers inherent in this politically motivated initiative -- even at the risk of offending powerful leaders of organized religion? For those with the requisite courage, here are some suggestions:

In his speech Monday, Bush declared that "[G]overnments can and should support effective social services provided by religious people, so long as they work and as long as those services go to anyone in need, regardless of their faith."

Mr. President, how WOULD they work? Who would police them? And what's your definition of religious groups? I'm assuming you don't want to make selections, so I guess you're good with taxpayer money being used by the Raelians and L. Ron Hubbard's Church of Scientology, the Hare Krishna, and so on?

Bush pressed on: "And when government gives that support, it is equally important that faith-based institutions should not be forced to change the character or compromise their prophetic role."

Mr. President, are you saying that taxpayer money should go to programs that -- because of the sponsoring religion's beliefs -- discriminate against gays, women, ethnic groups, other religions in hiring? (The Salvation Army won't hire gays, for example.)

Bush: "I think the charities helping the needy, it should not matter if there is a rabbi on the board, or a cross on the wall, or crescent on the wall, or religious commitment in the charter."

Mr. President, how about what they teach? I'm guessing you would not want the public's money being handed to a madrassa that implicitly encourages terrorism, as many of these Muslim schools do in Pakistan, for example. Whom do you have in mind to make these judgment calls?

Bush continued: "It's been said that 11:00 a.m. on Sunday is the most segregated hour in America."

Mr. President, history shows that antebellum preachers in the South supported slavery until the very end. You yourself, while praising a few local efforts, acknowledge that America's churches today lag behind businesses and the military in erasing racial barriers. The Roman Catholic Church in the United States is in disarray over allegations of endemic child abuse. What objective evidence leads you to think that religious groups, despite their rhetoric of compassion, are particularly suited to improving the nation's moral fabric?

Bush spoke further: "We created faith-based offices in key Cabinet departments to ensure that faith-based groups get equal treatment and fair access to government funds."

Mr. President, are you saying that taxpayer funds are financing lobbying operations established within the agencies they are seeking to influence?

And Mr. President: What is all this going to cost taxpayers? What effect will it have on reducing funding to highly-skilled, effective, secular social services agencies? And, finally, exactly how will this improve social services, rather than just benefiting religious groups? Did you know that the Salvation Army already gets around $1.5 billion a year in donations? How much do you intend to add to that?

Oh, and one more thing: Can you explain, in your own words, the concept of separation of church and state? Are you for eliminating that?
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7247
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 05:09 pm
Tres

Given that the framers thought this church/state separation issue as one that was of such common or imminent danger of collapse in the social affairs of men that it warranted the attention given it in the constitution...what indicators would you have us look for, as citizens alert to that danger?

What are the chances...real question here...of the present RNC allowing a Jew or a Muslim or a Moonie or even a Catholic to run for President? An athiest? And why is that? They, as a body, really believe the two issues ought to be so separate that faith stance is not relevant?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 07:14 pm
One of the major supporters of the administration, a corporation tied into the Defense Department through its provision of mercenaries and other military services to the US gov, is Dyncorp, a kind of shadowy company with headquarters in VA and, I think, in England as well. Dyncorp's military consultants and personnel, while on duty for the Pentagon in the Balkans, were found to have engaged in sex trade. Dyncorp is also one of the investments of the Bush family, from what I understand, through the Carlyle Corporation. Giving you just the headlines here because I've forgotten over half of the details -- they aren't details you'd much want to remember, really. But Bush's new pieties when it comes to this issue are pretty disgusting. I don't think many Dems will let this stuff go undiscussed forever.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 08:29 pm
au1929 wrote:
I object to him interjecting himself in to the affairs of other nations.

Do you really??? Yet you applaud France, Germany, and others interjecting themselves into ours. Strange, that. Rolling Eyes

Of course, you are also completely wrong here, besides being on the wrong side of the fight against what amounts to modern-day slavery. (We're not talking about women choosing a career in prostitution, we're talking about children and young women being taken across borders, held against their will, and forced into these activities.)

Add to that the fact that in this regard the Bush administration is merely acting AS REQUIRED BY LAW. Oh, and the law requiring them to get involved in this issue was passed in October 2000, on CLINTON's WATCH. So this is not Bush interjecting himself into anything, this is our government acting on a legal requirement set for them prior to Bush taking office.

Quote:
TIP Conference
International Conference of Activists "Pathbreaking Strategies in the Global Fight Against Sex Trafficking"

The U.S. State Department, in partnership with the non-governmental War Against Trafficking Alliance, will host an international conference on "Pathbreaking Strategies in the Global Fight Against Sex Trafficking." The conference will be held February 23-26, 2003 in Washington DC.

The State Department is directed by law to host this conference to underscore the commitment of the United States to the eradication of this modern-day form of slavery. It will highlight strategies from throughout the world that have been successful in the prevention and prosecution of trafficking, or in the protection of its victims. It will also recognize those who have devised particularly innovative solutions in the fight against trafficking.
Arrow Human Trafficking: TIP Conference

Quote:
The Trafficking Victims Protection Act (P.L.106-386), adopted in October 2000, provides the tools to combat trafficking in persons, both worldwide and domestically. The Act authorizes the establishment of the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons and the President's Interagency Task Force to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons to assist in the coordination of anti-trafficking efforts.
...
Trafficking in persons is a modern-day form of slavery, involving victims who are typically forced, defrauded or coerced into sexual or labor exploitation. It is among the fastest growing criminal activities, occurring both worldwide and in individual countries. Annually, at least 700,000 people, mostly women and children, are trafficked worldwide, including 50,000 persons into the United States.
Arrow Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons

I really think you'd fare better if you did a little research and thought a bit before just blasting away at anything that looks like an opportunity to vent your boundless hatred for Bush. But then that's just my opinion...
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