Separation of Church and State

Tress,

My religious beliefs have never been constrained, or denigrated by the government. I wish I could say the same for many of the Christians I've dealt with over the years. Not all Christians are overtly prejudiced against non-Christians, but I always suspect that it's there - lurking beneath their public faces. Others would stone me to death if they were not constrained. You can be any religion you wish, so long as it is Christian.

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asherman: when i enlisted i was given the choice between "catholic" "protestant" or "jewish" i do believe that is the govenment. my dogtags say "P"

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Dys,

Its been so long ago that I don't remember what was on my dogtags. In that distant life, I wasn't particular what my religious affiliation was described as anyway. I had other concerns, like a long libery in Barcelona. Now that I remember.

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Des,
There will always be people who are prejudiced, whether it be racism, ethnic differences, religion or any other difference that separates and classifies people. However, I have never seen or felt any government bias in respect to my not being a Christian.
The government has passed laws making bias crimes legally punishable. However, no one can control thought.
Rolling Eyes

One last thought as far as religion is concerned that is by far the greatest purveyor and generator of prejudice. Perhaps if that were outlawed our problem would be in great measure solved. Rolling Eyes

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When i was in the Army, i listed my religion as "Druid." I was obliged on four occassions to take action to assure that i was not listed as "non-christian" in my personnel folder. I actually had a shouting match with a civilian employee in Virginia who refused to change my record, until directly ordered to do so by the Major who supervised his section. I had to go back twice for new dog tags--the first set read "Protestant NOC," the second set read "Non-christian," and i finally sat down at the Addressograph machine the third time and punched out my own dog tags.

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Asherman wrote:

My religious beliefs have never been constrained, or denigrated by the government. I wish I could say the same for many of the Christians I've dealt with over the years. Not all Christians are overtly prejudiced against non-Christians, but I always suspect that it's there - lurking beneath their public faces. Others would stone me to death if they were not constrained. You can be any religion you wish, so long as it is Christian.

LOL!

Asherman, I have a lot of respect for other religions, and see a lot of good in all of them. I especially like some aspects of Buddhism and Hinduism (as far as my limited understanding thereof goes). I attend a Christian church, because it is a good spiritual community for me and for my family. I have questions about the nature of God, though I suspect they are not nearly as numerous as God's questions regarding my nature. :wink:

I'm going from memory here, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Buddha said that there are many paths up the mountainside and they all reach the top. This describes my view of religions. I also like what I like to call "Gandhi's Corollary", in which he said that while it is true that all paths lead up the mountain, it is also true that the man who circles the mountain attempting to convince others that he has found the one, true path has ceased to ascend.

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Setanta wrote:

When i was in the Army, i listed my religion as "Druid." I was obliged on four occassions to take action to assure that i was not listed as "non-christian" in my personnel folder. I actually had a shouting match with a civilian employee in Virginia who refused to change my record, until directly ordered to do so by the Major who supervised his section. I had to go back twice for new dog tags--the first set read "Protestant NOC," the second set read "Non-christian," and i finally sat down at the Addressograph machine the third time and punched out my own dog tags.

Set - Was this your actual religion, or were you just giving the military a hard time? (I'm thinking/half-hoping it was the latter.) Laughing

In either case it is completely cool, but if it is the latter, I imagine we could trade some stories about giving the military a hard time.

Years ago I read (some of) a book :wink: which I believe was entitled "Escape Attempts", which explored how people assert their individuality within regimented conditions (such as the military, prison, parochial schools). What I read of it was fairly interesting.

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In answer to your question, yes--and i played it to the hilt. When, at each duty station, my religious preference was finally grudgingly accepted, i obliged them to give me sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as a sabbath, and told them i needed to be alone in a grove of trees. The lifers nearly had steam coming out of their ears.

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Hmmm.. I was given several sets of dog tags during my years in the military and never had any problem with the religion issue. Maybe things have changed over the years??? Mine always just said "None". I did have to validate that every few years but I also had to validate my Social Security number was correct too so... I don't think it was religion specific.

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Setanta wrote:

In answer to your question, yes--and i played it to the hilt. When, at each duty station, my religious preference was finally grudgingly accepted, i obliged them to give me sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as a sabbath, and told them i needed to be alone in a grove of trees. The lifers nearly had steam coming out of their ears.

ROFLMAO!!!! Laughing

The closest I can come to this is cutting the center out of my "Gilligan" sailor's cap and wearing it around the ship telling anyone who challenged me that I had converted to Judaism, and had to make do since there were no yarmulkes available on board. (I probably only pulled this for a few days though.)

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Fishin', i didn't want "none" on my dog tags--i wanted "Druid." I eventually got it, too.

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mark

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more and more curiouser, seems as though different persons had different experiences regarding the military and religion. when i enlisted in 1962 i was only given the options of 1. protestant 2. catholic 3. Jewish

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America's version of the christian taliban; while it has been well noted that we are aghast by the Islamic tradition of mandating their religion upon their citizens we dont seem to mind at all doing the same thing to american citizens. as i have posted here before the colorado legislature has before it a bill to demand "IN GOD WE TRUST" placards in every classroom, in every public school in Colorado. the specific legislation requires that the placards be readable from a minimum of 20 feet (doubling for an eye chart?) additionally the bill says any school or teacher refusing to comply within 60 days will be subject to legal action. . Perhaps the school day should also start with everyone singing John Denver's "thank god i'm a country boy." one proponent of the bill Clair Orr the signs would only suggest "a scantury where you can believe anything you damn well please, it is about honoring those who sacrificed for our freedoms" but to me "IN GOD WE TRUST" means IN GOD WE TRUST, and nothing about believing anything you damn well please. If you consider "IN GOD WE TRUST" pretty much requires that you start with a trust in god. i suggest an alternative placard "DON'T TRUST ANYONE WHO TRIES TO TELL YOU WHOM TO TRUST".

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Good idea, Dys, and like all such, doomed at birth . . .

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dys - I suspect the different experiences had to do with when we each went in. Over the years a greater recognition of the need for accomodating individuals desires and getting away from the "if the Army wanted you to have a family they would have issued you one" type of thinking - a large part of that was with the shift to an all volunteer force.

Of course, there will always be old hard-liners that will insist the military has "gone soft" but for the most part the changes have been beneficial IMO. (On occassion things do get carried away but I think that happens everywhere else too!)

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dys - I understand your concern about this, but I have to ask you what specifically about "IN GOD WE TRUST" makes it a specifically Christian sentiment?

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ok tres for the sake of discussion lets amend it to sons of abraham. but no that doesn't work either so lets make it "christian-judeo"

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Thinking about this (you're gonna say I'm making a sick joke here), I have found it useful to compare religion (any religion) with pornography when talking about their roles in our society. Each influences in a particular way which annoys those who don't think it should influence. Each gives pleasure and comfort in a way which annoys those who don't think it should give pleasure and comfort. Each... you take it from here. But I'm not joking. Just haven't thought it through completely...!

(Setanta, When I was ten and away at a summer camp, I got pneumonia and was taken to the local hospital. When my mother came to visit, she stopped at the front desk and was asked to fill in personal details on my chart -- questions which the camp hadn't been able to answer about this child. One was Religion? My mother said, "None." When they handed her the chart to sign, she noticed that the receptionist had written "NUN.")

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dyslexia wrote:

ok tres for the sake of discussion lets amend it to sons of abraham. but no that doesn't work either so lets make it "christian-judeo"

Well, I think you're leaving out some other options, most notably Islam, but fine.

Now, what do you read in the Constitution of Colorado regarding religion, and what does the state government of Colorado have to do with the federal government of our nation? It seems to me that whatever you may think the founders intended the feds to do regarding religion, didn't they leave it up to the states to decide how they each chose to handle the issue internally?

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