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Pentagon Board Report: "US 'alienating' world's Muslims"

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 01:26 pm
It is relevant, in that religious persecution is a staple.

Religion is a basic point in disagreements across the globe, across time.

Baldimo seems to feel that Christians would not behave unreasonably/make bigoted comments. The evidence on this board, and across the world, counters that.

I considered copying posts from a number of professed Christians on the board as examples, but felt it would be less inflamatory to make the point in a different manner.
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 01:32 pm
I never said that. What I'm saying is that people who are against Christians on this board have no problem throwing names and accusations around but when the Christians do it they pile on that person like flies on sh*t. It is a double standard that is demonstrated on this board time and time again. No one is better then the other when it comes to making bigoted statements but there is silence on one side when they do it. It is expected and accepted by those that hate Christians.
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 01:35 pm
Wasn't this a tit for tat kind of thing?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 01:36 pm
Started out that way, lol

Cycloptichorn
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 02:06 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Freeduck - the fact is that real, genuine Muslims have beliefs that are totally incompatible with Western culture and not only that but incompatible with the law in ALL countries that are not Islamic Theocracies.



A few wackjobs doesn't prove this to be true any more than those who murder doctors in the name of Jesus proves that real, genuine Christians have beliefs that are totally incompatible with Western culture.

If what you say is true, then we are wasting our time trying to give western style freedom to Iraqis, who by your account, have beliefs that are totally incompatible with that. The man who murdered van Gogh was a fundamentalist wacko and an immigrant. Those kind come in all shapes and colors and exist in all countries. If you choose to let them signify a much larger group of people who happen to share the same general religion as that person you are doing yourself a disservice.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 02:29 pm
Of the major conflicts in the world, what percentage of them do not involve Muslims?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 02:31 pm
Do you mean the current major conflicts or the major conflicts throughout history?
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 02:39 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
Freeduck - the fact is that real, genuine Muslims have beliefs that are totally incompatible with Western culture and not only that but incompatible with the law in ALL countries that are not Islamic Theocracies.



A few wackjobs doesn't prove this to be true any more than those who murder doctors in the name of Jesus proves that real, genuine Christians have beliefs that are totally incompatible with Western culture.

If what you say is true, then we are wasting our time trying to give western style freedom to Iraqis, who by your account, have beliefs that are totally incompatible with that. The man who murdered van Gogh was a fundamentalist wacko and an immigrant. Those kind come in all shapes and colors and exist in all countries. If you choose to let them signify a much larger group of people who happen to share the same general religion as that person you are doing yourself a disservice.


Freeduck - I was merely attempting to point out that it's not (in my opinion) US hypocrisy alone that is to blame for "alienating" the world's Muslims (as reported in the original article.)

That's why I used the example of Van Gogh and Holland. If orthodox Muslims want to assimilate into Western culture, it seems to me parts of the Koran will have to be repudiated.

As for Iraq, democracy in general will be difficult for Arabs to handle, but I think it might succeed because the majority there have a wise leader in Sistani. Another reason is free-market capitalism will mostly likely speed up the process of compelling Islam to more tolerance. This aspect wouldn't have been possible centuries ago.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 02:46 pm
I thought the Arabs practically invented free market capitalism.

The US certainly is responsible for its actions and if those actions have alienated muslims, we have to accept that. All the examples of wicked muslims you can muster won't change the fact that we are the most powerful nation in the world and all of our actions affect the rest of the world. It didn't take a fortune teller to see what the results of our actions in Iraq and our hardline stance on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would be, not to mention our top diplomat's poor choices of words when speaking in public. If you or any advocate of the current administration's policies could show that it was all somehow worth it, then this would be a different conversation altogether.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 03:10 pm
Duck - I agree we are the worlds strongest and most generous nation on the planet. Everything we do affects the rest of the world. Yet, of all the benefits we provided to the Muslim world, I am somewhat surprised at the "feelings" towards America.

Were they not too happy when we liberated Kuwait?
Were they upset when we built the Oil Wells for them (yea, I know all about it), not to mention the humaitarian aid we provide constantly.

Or is it really all about Isreal.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 03:22 pm
woiyo wrote:
Duck - I agree we are the worlds strongest and most generous nation on the planet. Everything we do affects the rest of the world. Yet, of all the benefits we provided to the Muslim world, I am somewhat surprised at the "feelings" towards America.

Were they not too happy when we liberated Kuwait?
Were they upset when we built the Oil Wells for them (yea, I know all about it), not to mention the humaitarian aid we provide constantly.

Or is it really all about Isreal.


To be fair, it's not just muslims who have a negative impression of our government's actions. We see ourselves as generous. Less powerful countries see us as a country who gives with one hand and takes with the other. It's impossible to see that perspective from our comfy chairs.

I think that the cheap and easy conclusion is that the problem is one of the muslim religion. If you can avoid making that conclusion for two seconds and look at it in terms of geography, economics, and colonialism you might see it differently. That said, there is a sort of collective muslim psyche for lack of a better word. There is no question that muslims in peaceful countries still connect strongly to the plight of those in horrific situations -- like the Palestinians -- and their opinion of our government is none too positive.

Oh, and I think that most people would laugh at the idea that we built the oil wells 'for them'. Indeed we make many of their oppressors rich and do much to keep otherwise weak despots in power.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 03:41 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
...Indeed we make many of their oppressors rich and do much to keep otherwise weak despots in power.


And then, when George W. Bush comes along and makes an entirely good faith effort to reverse the failed Middle East policies of the last 60 years, all he gets for it from the left is being **** on.

Why is that?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 03:52 pm
gungasnake wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
...Indeed we make many of their oppressors rich and do much to keep otherwise weak despots in power.


And then, when George W. Bush comes along and makes an entirely good faith effort to reverse the failed Middle East policies of the last 60 years, all he gets for it from the left is being **** on.

Why is that?


Maybe you'd like to describe this good faith effort and how it was a welcome change to muslims around the world? Maybe he's been pressuring the Saudi kingdom to hold elections and to improve its record on human rights? Maybe he's been extolling the virtues of a representative government to the kings of Morocco and Jordan? Maybe he's been pressuring Sharon to stop settlement activity in the occupied territories? Maybe he hasn't launched a war against terrorism which seems to them to be a thinly veiled war on Islam? Maybe he didn't call it a crusade.

We didn't have a stellar reputation before he came to power, to be sure, but he's done nothing but rub feces on it since. The rest of the world doesn't seem to share our belief that rampant destruction spreads peace, freedom, and democracy.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 05:17 pm
There are two things W. could have done the day after 9-11, i.e. what he did, and what I would have done, which would have been to level both Mecca and Medina, and ban the practice of Islam not only in America but throughout the world.

You'd like to at least try W.'s soilution first and, when you do, you'll find that in any effort to introduce democratic and responsible governments to the middle east, there has to be a first one.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 05:28 pm
gungasnake
Why stop at Islam. Ban all religion! Who the hell writes your copy? Adolf?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 06:55 pm
au1929 wrote:
gungasnake
Why stop at Islam. Ban all religion! Who the hell writes your copy? Adolf?


In my view, there's no other religion which is a logical candidate for banning. Islam is totally different from other religions and cannot be treated the way you treat other religions. In non-islammic nations, it ultimately has to either be banned or severely controlled, which is what the Dutch are now discovering. Near as I can tell, a significant number of muslims view something like six or seven percent as critical mass, i.e. when the muslim population of a country reaches six or seven percent, they begin trying to take over.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 07:01 pm
gungasnake


Hell they can't do that. Who do they think they are Born Again Christians
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Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 07:06 pm
Wow, six or seven percent. Powerful little buggers. Where else have I heard of a plan that calls for eradicating a religion, its adherents who were allegedly conspiring to take over countries despite their small numbers? Hmmm… sinister, muslim cabals…
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 07:49 pm
gungasnake wrote:
There are two things W. could have done the day after 9-11, i.e. what he did, and what I would have done, which would have been to level both Mecca and Medina, and ban the practice of Islam not only in America but throughout the world.

You'd like to at least try W.'s soilution first and, when you do, you'll find that in any effort to introduce democratic and responsible governments to the middle east, there has to be a first one.


Lol! Nah, Gunga, fortunately there are in fact a plethora of choices - even Bush Inc do not consider themselves bound in such a way as your almost insane prejudices appear to bind your thinking.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 08:18 pm
dlowan wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
There are two things W. could have done the day after 9-11, i.e. what he did, and what I would have done, which would have been to level both Mecca and Medina, and ban the practice of Islam not only in America but throughout the world.

You'd like to at least try W.'s soilution first and, when you do, you'll find that in any effort to introduce democratic and responsible governments to the middle east, there has to be a first one.


Lol! Nah, Gunga, fortunately there are in fact a plethora of choices - even Bush Inc do not consider themselves bound in such a way as your almost insane prejudices appear to bind your thinking.


I would assume your "plethora of choices" means trying to pretend that Kofi Annan and his cohorts were protecting us from Saddam Hussein whle they were taking oil4terror money from him?
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